Print Layout Confusion

[mbaginy]

I’m using a Mac with Lightroom 3.5 but have noticed similar issues in previous versions.  My problems center around settings of the print layout.  At the moment I’m trying to print 3 vertical images (10 x 15cm) on a horizontal sheet of A3 paper.  I want the one image row and 3 collumns centered.  Spacing between the images ist o be 2cm.

The margin dimensions don’t make sense.  Though centered visually, the values for top and bottom are completely wrong: top:0,3cm (though measured with the ruler = 5cm); bottom: 0.9cm (though measured with the ruler = 5cm).

My main problem, which is driving me nuts, ist he image spacing.  Set in layout to 2cm simply looks far greater and when I change that value to almost zero, the visual spacing is still far too wide!  I can’t get the desired 2cm.

Also, when I change the cell spacing with the slider, the cell site values change – even though they need not , since there’s enough space on the A3 sheet and they don’t change visually.  Only the values.

Am I the only one stumped by these settings and values?  What could I be doing wrong?  It seems, as if mathamatics are ignored by Lightroom and turned upside down.  By the way, the test print mirrors the visual print layout and not the screwy values.

Watching Michael’s and Jeff’s LR tutorials makes layout look so simple.  Set the printer page setting, set the desired values, then adjust color management settings and print.  Great on video but when I print, one plus one equals three point eight!  There’s probably a very simple solution and I’ll kick myself for having been so stupid, once I realize it.

I’d greatly appreciate any suggestions to how actually use these layout settings.  And rely upon them.

[NikoJorj]

If images do'nt have the right aspect ratio for the cell size you specify, they will either be cropped or have more margins added as needed, depending if the "zoom to fill" checkbox is checked or not.

Otherwise, a screen grab might help us to understand the problem.

[mbaginy]

Thanks for your comments, NikoJorj.  The aspect ratio of my three images (when cropping) was set to 3:2 in order to be printed in the desired 15 x 10cm size.

I've been playing around all morning and have now found, that the margins are driving the spacings.  I had wanted to set up my A3 page by placing one (15 x 10cm) image in the center and plus on (15 x 10cm) to the left, with a spacing of 2cm and another to the right.

While I've found a combination of settings (margins, cell size, spacing) to equal the desired case, the rulers don't measure those figures and the printed page doesn't reflect the dimensional readout.

For some reason, the margin settings are negatively altering the cell size and spacing setting - for no apparent reason.  There is enough space on the A3 page for the composition I'm desiring.  It almost seems as if Lightroom (through the margin settings) creates its own mathematical laws.  One plus one equals three!  Or I'm extremely dense and can't see the obvious, but I've checked, double checked and rechecked for the past hours, without any success - other than fiddling with the margins to get a setting combination which not only shows the right dimensions but actually IS that size.  I'm ready to print three individual prints and tape them into the frame separately - not what I really want.

[mbaginy]

Below is (a link to the screen shot) what I’ve been able to rteach by fiddling with the left and right margin settings.

This is close to what I want to print, but reaching this  doesn’t make sense to me.  While not caring about the margins, I just want to place the three images in the center of an A3 page with a cetrain spacing.

And, if the left margin really is 37.5mm, then how can the top be 3.4mm?  My eyesight may not be as accurate as in earlier years, but the top and bottom margins sure look larger to me than the left and right.

Hey Michael and Jeff, you make page setup seem to easy in your tutorial.  What am I doing wrong?  I hope it’s something simple and easy, even if I feel silly afterwards.

Here's the link to my screen shot:

http://www.pbase.com/mbaginy/image/139927036

[NikoJorj]

And, if the left margin really is 37.5mm, then how can the top be 3.4mm? 

It is, and then it gives extra room on the top and bottom for the 15cm cell. The margin value is not constrained to go to the cell border, it may leave extra space.
The cells are always placed in the middle of the space defined by the margins, so this setup is probably what you want.
If you really want to be exact, enter manually in the margin fields 40mm for left/right and 73mm for top/bottom.

[mbaginy]

Hi Nicolas, sorry, but I'm not understanding your suggestion.  The complication I'm dealing with is, that I don't care about the top, bottom, left or right margins.  There is space enough around those three images.  I'd simply like to position the first image in the center (more or less) and equally space the remaining two to the left and right of that first image (with a distance of 2cm).  The dimensions LR show for margins or cell spacing boarder on fantasy and don't reflect reality one bit.

I've printed the A3 page with those three images by fiddling with the margins, then finally reaching the required cell spacing.  That cost me some sheets of paper.  I can't seem to find a way of getting the dimensions shown in the print setup to make any sense.  Seems as if it were better (or more accurate) if "close", "closer", "pretty far" or so, would be better than showing dimensional values (which then aren't correct).

I'll finally install "mirage" from "dinax" which I had bought with my Epson 3880 printer.  Sadly, it only runs via Photoshop but I'll get the hang of it - and I'll keep my fingers crossed, that I understand the page dimensions.

Thanks for your comments, Nicolas.

[Jim Pascoe]

Hi Mike

Frustrating isn't it - when stuff doesn't seem logical.  I do a LOT of printing in Lightroom and can easily replicate what you are trying to do.  Whether I can explain it briefly is another matter!

1. bring up your A3 page in the Print module.
2. Set 1 row and 3 columns
3. Set the L and R margin sliders far left (0)
4. Set your cell size to 150 high by 100 wide (mm)
5. Now the tricky bit!  Nudge the left and right margin sliders in while watching the Cell Spacing until it becomes 20mm.  If you overshoot just readjust.  With a bit of practise it becomes easier and you can judge quite easily by eye whether the outside margins are equal.  If you do a lot of pictures with the same setup save your layout as a template.

When you want to print, hit the Print button and when the printer box comes up you can select Preview to check that you will indeed get what you want without wasting a load of paper.

Now if you want to ask me why it works this way, save your typing fingers - I don't know! I think it might be to do with default printer margins.  Lightroom is brilliant piece of software for printing though so I suggest you persevere - it will be worth it.

Now - back to work!  Good luck.

Jim

[mbaginy]

Hi Jim,

You've explained the (almost) workflow I ended up with to print that A3 sheet with three images.  Though I didn't set the left and right margins to zero, I did grab their sliders until the cell spacing readout reached (more of less) the required 2cm.

It took me quite some time to work this out - maybe I was fixated a bit too much upon typing in desired cell spacing!

I would suggest to Adobe, to either fix the cell spacing function or change it to a readout value only.  Actually typing in a value is completely misleading because LR does whatever it seemingly wants to - and NOT what I've entered (and actually shows as the setup value!).  Maybe someone can offer an explanation why LR functions in this manner.

Jim, your suggested workflow is exactly what I'll follow in the future.  Yes, I've saved the settings as a template.  Great, that LR offers this.  Working from the top down does seem the proper (and only?) functioning sequence.  Thanks a million!

Mike

[RayGroome]

Mike

I was interested in your problem, and when I tried it I had the same problem. However I overcame it by using the 'Custom Package' and manually positioning the cells. The grid provided made this fairly simple.

Ray Groome

[Jim Pascoe]

Hi Jim,

You've explained the (almost) workflow I ended up with to print that A3 sheet with three images.  Though I didn't set the left and right margins to zero, I did grab their sliders until the cell spacing readout reached (more of less) the required 2cm.

It took me quite some time to work this out - maybe I was fixated a bit too much upon typing in desired cell spacing!

I would suggest to Adobe, to either fix the cell spacing function or change it to a readout value only.  Actually typing in a value is completely misleading because LR does whatever it seemingly wants to - and NOT what I've entered (and actually shows as the setup value!).  Maybe someone can offer an explanation why LR functions in this manner.

Jim, your suggested workflow is exactly what I'll follow in the future.  Yes, I've saved the settings as a template.  Great, that LR offers this.  Working from the top down does seem the proper (and only?) functioning sequence.  Thanks a million!

Mike

Hi Mike

Glad you have some sanity back.  I think typing values in some fields work, but some seem to have priority over others!  Most of my printing is done from templates now and I have saved dozens.  Quite often I can quickly adapt a template to suit another series of prints quite quickly.  Of course the template can also be saved with all of the other print settings to which speeds everything up.  Ray mentions the custom template and I have dabbled with that too - worth looking at.  Like all these things though it often takes a lot of playing around to get to grips with.

Jim

[mbaginy]

Hi Ray, Hi Jim,

To be truthful, I had never ventured into the realms of Custom or Picture Package!  The workspace I had always used was Single Image / Contact Sheet.  What I was trying to achieve was not a single image and not really a contact sheet either.  So maybe that is LR3's logic: use the Custom Package!

I have one more three-image frame for which I'll be printing and now I have the necessary template saved.  In the future, I'll resort to become more accustomed with Custom Package.

Thank both of you for your helpful suggestions!

Mike

p.s.
Yes Jim, for a while, I was doubting my sanity.

[NikoJorj]

OK, I see now what you meant : setting the cell spacing changes the margins...

5. Now the tricky bit!  Nudge the left and right margin sliders in while watching the Cell Spacing until it becomes 20mm.  If you overshoot just readjust.  With a bit of practise it becomes easier and you can judge quite easily by eye whether the outside margins are equal.  If you do a lot of pictures with the same setup save your layout as a template.

I found the following solution simpler : calculate how much yout margins should be (here (420-100*3-20*2)/2=40mm laterally) and then enter the desired values manually in the numeric field from top to bottom (cell size should already be OK when you reach there), rather than tickering with the sliders.
If I understand your problem well, what could solve it is a "pin" on some layout values, telling LR that the value you entered in this field shall not change.

[mbaginy]

Hi Nicolas,

Yes, some sort of freezing the set values would be nice.  As for entering the values - I don't trust LR to actually set them.  I've set 2cm cell spacing but the ruler (above the A3 page depiction showed about 2.8cm or so.  That's why I messed up and printed a total of four pages.  At first I couldn't believe the results, then re-set the values but another faulty print was the result.  Frustrating, unnecessary and costly!!

I'll follow the suggestions Jim and Ray have made.  And I hope other users will learn from my mishap.  I'd noticed odd margins results in the past but placed the blame on my Canon i9950 printer which was more of a "consumer grade" product.  But the similar problems with my Epson 3880 made me wonder.  It pays to check, re-check and then check again.  And not to trust LR's dimensions.

As Jim had written, no sense in asking why, better to just acknowledge facts and take another route leading to the goal.  I hope to have found that.

Thanks for your comments and suggestions!
Mike