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Author Topic: IQ140 kit vs DM40  (Read 9049 times)

calindustries

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IQ140 kit vs DM40
« on: November 20, 2011, 04:34:11 pm »

Considering the jump up to medium format in the next year. From what I understand these are the same sensor correct? I realize that the IQ has the much better screen. Most of my work with rented systems is with H bodies and phase backs (both p30+ and p40+. I most definitely want the schneider lenses (one of my main reasons to move up to MF is to take advantage of leaf shutter synching).

How is the mamiya/leaf back with capture one? I want that to be smooth (at least as smooth as it is with canon/phase).

I would think the IQ is the bells and whistles back, but for the price difference I'm seeing I could almost swing 2 more lenses going with the mamiya/leaf. Also wondering about the DM33 kit just because I tend to go wider with my lens choices and the bigger sensor should help with that...

Any other input would be great!

-craig
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Doug Peterson

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Re: IQ140 kit vs DM40
« Reply #1 on: November 20, 2011, 07:39:35 pm »

It would be good to know more about what you shoot (genre/speed/style/commercial-vs-personal), where you are located (support/rental/dealers), what you own now (for more relevant comparisons), and what you hope to get out of moving to medium format (for reality checks or reassurance). Any previous experience you've had with medium format would also be helpful. These sorts of things will help everyone on the board provide more specific and relevant answers to your questions.

Note my signature; As a Value Added Dealer of Phase and Leaf I have an inherent bias. Though I (and hopefully our customers) would argue strongly we (Capture Integration) try very hard to provide honest and real-world advice.

Some differences:
IQ has USB3 as an option. This port is not yet functional - it is waiting for a firmware update due "soon" (it is actually overdue). However, when it becomes functional it will add the option to shoot to smaller laptops which lack firewire ports. Both backs have FW800 and both backs transfer the image quite quickly to the computer.

Capture One support for both backs is roughly the same. There were some initial bumps in the road when Phase bought Leaf and added support for Leaf in Capture One (disconnects or slower transfers or errors) but that period only lasted several weeks and now Capture One is exceptionally stable with both.

The Mamiya/Leaf backs require steady/sufficient firewire power. This is also true of most other competitive digital backs and of Phase earlier backs. However, the IQ has an internal battery whereas the Mamiya/Leaf back's battery can only be used while shooting untethered and is therefore entirely dependent on the computer for steady/sufficient firewire power while shooting tethered. The vast majority of issues I've seen with Mamiya/Leaf stem from a computer which is not putting out consistent firewire power - the cure for which is shooting with a powered hub (preferably one specifically tested to provide good FW power like the ones we've tested) and/or testing a specific back with a specific computer to make sure there are no issues. I'd consider this a hassle more than a show stopper since most photographers only own one back and only own one laptop and the majority of combinations were perfectly well. But it is an advantage of the IQ over the Mamiya/Leaf. The IQ will also charge the battery while plugged in by FW which is a nicety.

The IQ can eke out modestly longer exposures than the Mamiya/Leaf. Both backs are supurb at several seconds but the Mamiya/Leaf is spec'd at a maximum of 30 seconds and is pretty sketchy (depending on your needs and the ambient temperature) at 20 seconds. The IQ is spec'd at 60 seconds and does quite well up to around 45 seconds.

IQ has a nicer screen as defined by brightness and overall crispness but I wouldn't discount the Leaf screen. It shows a pretty good view at 100% and is quite nice in the studio. Outside the brightness can be somewhat of an issue but depending on your shooting style and speed simply ducking under a cloth or shielding the LCD with a hand is usually sufficient. And if you're shooting tethered it's largely moot since the computer will be the point of most judgements. Capture Pilot can be useful here as an iPad is both wireless, portable, and a darn good screen (brightness/sharpness/other). Again, the worth of the screens will largely depend on your style.

The IQ interface and boot speed is significantly faster. The Leaf interface however currently offers more total flexibility and features. For instance the Leaf interface will allow you to make annotations on a file, change naming schemes, and apply LCC's (an important tool - but specific to technical cameras) in the camera.

If you are in the US then most service for Leaf/Mamiya is done in the US and has a significantly faster turn around time than Phase One or other digital backs which must go to Europe. The chance of needing a repair on a digital back is pretty small but if/when it happens this could be of significant value.

The base warranty for both products is one year but the Value Added Warranty (which also includes other accessories and niceties) of the IQ is 5 years versus 3 years for the Leaf.

Leaf backs have a historical reputation for excellent skin tones. My feeling from extensive experience is that this is part myth/marketing (e.g. many great fashion shooters who had good workflow and good models used Leaf) and part reality (higher emphasis in the lab at targeting development of more and higher quality skin tone oriented ICC color profiles and other technology/priority differences). Certainly the gap in this regard has narrowed since Phase started using Dalsa sensors rather than Kodak sensors. There is also an element of personal taste and aesthetics here) But overall I'd still have to give Leaf the edge here.

Mamiya/Leaf backs are less expensive for any given sensor and resolution. As you point out this not only means less cost but that you might be able to afford more accessories and lenses which can have just as much impact on your shooting as a different back. For instance I think you'll like the VGrip Air which has a built-in wireless flash transmitter capable of wireless sync at 1/1600th. No extra battery/cable/device-sticking-up-above-the-camera needed.

Going wider by having a larger sensor is a double-edge sword. On all the medium format lens lines I've extensively used (which is all but the AFI line) the widest lenses are not the stars of the lineup, and the issues are most often in the corners of the frame as viewed on large sensor backs. So you may find that a 28D with a smaller sensor is actually sharper corner-to-corner than a 35D with a larger sensor. What having a smaller sensor does most of all is limit the absolute widest you can go - if a 28D with a cropped sensor isn't wide enough for you then you're out of luck. I'm quite adamant however that if you want the best possible wide angle quality that a tech camera is the way to go - but that's best suited for shooting relatively stationary imagery (architecture/landscape/interiors).

The IQ also has a feature called "Sensor+" which reduces the resolution to 1/4th normal, increases maximum shooting speed, and increases the native ISO of the back two stops. This allows very good ISO1600 (at 10 megapixels) and kinda-sorta-usable ISO3200 (I use it in black and white, add contrast, and add a bit of grain and I think the look is very very nice - albeit definitely NOT 'clean + commercial' looking). This is less of a big deal with the IQ150 than I think it is for the IQ160 since the IQ160's 1/4th resolution sensor+ file is 15 megapixel and in my experience compares very favorably to a 5DII (22 megapixel ladened with an AA filter). But it's still something to consider IF you have part of your shooting that does not require high res files (e.g. website only, large volume headshots for max 8x10 prints, etc).

The IQ has a limited-functionality Live View on the back's LCD itself. It works quite well if the right amount of light is hitting the sensor and the subject is not moving. For controlled-light-interiors, still life, product, and dawn/dusk photography it works quite well. In bright sunlight or other situations where there is a lot of light or the subject is moving it's more or less useless (depending on what you're shooting and your shooting style you can use an ND filter to reduce the ambient light to something that works well). It is not like Canon/Nikon live view but as outlined above if you're style/subject is conducive it's a fantastic (and unique in MF) tool to have available.

Another point to consider is where you live and who will be around to support you. This means other photographers, digital techs, rental houses, and value added dealers. If most of your assistants know Leaf and not Phase then your shoots with Leaf are inevitably going to go better than they would with a Phase back. If you have a value added dealer you like that can train you on the IQ and will turn a panic'd phone call and turn it into a simple 30 second answer that gets you up and running (e.g. you didn't know where a setting was) then that will greatly influence your experience as well. If you have a rental house near you that you have a good relationship with you and they stock one back or the other than in the case that you need a replacement (or just want an on-hand backup for a super critical shoot) then that should be considered.

So in summary the major differences are features and functionality untethered. When tethering and shooting at lower ISOs the image quality is essentially identical (maybe some difference in color - specifically skintones). When shooting in the field untethered the IQ has a distinct advantage in feature set and screen quality and interface speed.

Depending on your needs the Mamiya will make a great kit for you and save you a lot of money - or create needless headaches and frustration that investing in the IQ would have solved. As always the needs of the photographer are the primary determiner of how "good" a tool any given camera is. :-)

Doug Peterson (e-mail Me)
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« Last Edit: November 21, 2011, 08:53:37 am by dougpetersonci »
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BernardLanguillier

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Re: IQ140 kit vs DM40
« Reply #2 on: November 20, 2011, 07:58:37 pm »

Such detailed and fair answers is a strong argument in favor of the value provided by Value Added resellers.

Once the dust settles, that might end up being the single most important differentiator in favor of backs when compared to other devices for working pros.

Cheers,
Bernard

calindustries

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Re: IQ140 kit vs DM40
« Reply #3 on: November 20, 2011, 08:28:29 pm »

Doug,
Thank you so much for the in-depth response. I'll have so many follow up questions for sure. Definitely at least 6 months out on making a move. I shoot portrait/lifestyle and shoot mostly with Canon 5dMKII.  I moved to this camera from mostly using RZ. I am looking at moving to MF and sharing (co-buying) a system with a good friend who shoots fashion (we often share/ co-op our gear). We are both located in Brooklyn so we have a lot of rental options at our disposal. I have been working as a tech with phase systems for a while and am very comfortable with using them on H2 set ups.

I have not used leaf backs before at all. Are you saying that there is no battery for shooting untethered (or is it external??)?

Here is an example of what I shoot: www.craiglacourt.com

Thanks again!
-Craig
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pindman

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Re: IQ140 kit vs DM40
« Reply #4 on: November 20, 2011, 08:45:21 pm »

The user interface of the IQ back is fantastic.

Even more important is the phenomenal service I have received from Capture Integration, 24/7.  I have no financial interest in them, but having received answers from Doug at any hour I wouldn't underestimate the value added by such support!

Paul
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Doug Peterson

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Re: IQ140 kit vs DM40
« Reply #5 on: November 20, 2011, 08:47:24 pm »

I'm turning in for the night but quick thoughts:

- Deciding on a kit that's right for you usually is and should be a slow well thought-out process. Individuals who rush it (or "jump" on a "great deal" that surfaces) often end up wishing they had taken more time. Beyond the initial cash outlay a medium format purchase commits you to a certain set of available lenses, accessories, software options, and upgrade paths - with time, money, and starting at the bottom of a new learning curve the penalty to change.

- Either back would work on an RZ Pro IID (adapter required). The crop is such that there is no chance for wide angle but I've shot a good amount with the 110/2.8 and it is a beautiful lens with a 40mp digital back. You can swap back and forth between the RZ and the DF. That can also help you when you're just starting off and can't justify/afford buying a whole set of Schneider lenses (assuming you still have RZ lenses and would be interested in buying an RZ ProIID body).

- Leaf's battery loads in the same spot as the firewire cable. Which means you can use the battery or you can use the firewire cable, but you can't use both. For most combinations of backs and laptops this isn't an issue (the power is stable/consistent) but it is something to consider.

Doug Peterson (e-mail Me)
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Head of Technical Services, Capture Integration
Phase One Partner of the Year
Leaf, Leica, Cambo, Arca Swiss, Canon, Apple, Profoto, Broncolor, Eizo & More

National: 877.217.9870  |  Cell: 740.707.2183
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« Last Edit: November 21, 2011, 08:53:11 am by dougpetersonci »
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Doug Peterson

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Re: IQ140 kit vs DM40
« Reply #6 on: November 21, 2011, 08:55:28 am »

Note: I edited my first reply. At one point I said you could only use the Leaf/Mamiya battery while shooting tethered. Of course what I meant was the opposite: you can only use the Leaf/Mamiya battery while shooting untethered.

Willow Photography

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Re: IQ140 kit vs DM40
« Reply #7 on: November 21, 2011, 10:25:08 am »

Hi

I was in a similary situation.
I was either buying a Leaf Aptus II 8 or a IQ140.

Like you, I thought the Leaf was the way to go because of

- skin tones ( important for my kind of work )
- price ( I could by two more lenses for the difference )
- Leaf now supported by C1

I bought the Leaf and it took me 3-4 weeks before I gave up and told
the dealer I wanted to have the IQ140 instead.

biggest reasons:

- I seldom got good skintones ( and absolutely not without lots of post )
- it was slow
- LCD not good for judging colors or sharpness
- every time I opened a file on C1 I was disapointed in have it looked -           color/sharpness/contrast

I know with more post it would look fine and I would be more happy ( maybe )

But when I got the IQ140 I was very pleased from day one!!!
Skintones, sharpness and contrast/color was spot on from first image.

For me it was a huge difference and worth the extra $$$.

Maybe it was something wrong with the Leaf i got ( or me .-)  ),
but for me the visible difference in IQ was huge.

And the handling and LCD on the IQ140 is also how it should be in 2011.


Willow

« Last Edit: November 21, 2011, 10:27:04 am by Willow Photography »
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Willow Photography

Doug Peterson

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Re: IQ140 kit vs DM40
« Reply #8 on: November 21, 2011, 01:13:05 pm »

- I seldom got good skintones ( and absolutely not without lots of post )

Did you experiment with the myriad of Skintone profiles included in C1 for the Leaf back? Part of the "magic" of Leaf skintones is that they have several very thought out skintone color profiles for each back. Finding the one that matches your style/aesthetics is paramount to enjoyable, consistent results. Once you figure it out (along with your preferred base amount of contrast, clarity, saturation, curves etc) you can set style Capture One to apply that style upon import (or tethered capture). This is the sort of learning curve that you'll get with any radically new camera system and part of what a good dealer can help a lot with. Finding the ICC profile that looks best to you (and your clients) is akin (in my mind) to getting one roll of several films and deciding which one you'll be buying a bulk order of - except you only have to shoot a few images in various lighting and then play for an hour in Capture One.

That said it's very possible Willow knew all this, did his due diligence and still found he liked skintones from the Phase better (and at default settings to boot). After all skintones are VERY subjective and I've seen a huge range to what various photographers refer to as "great skintone".

- it was slow
- LCD not good for judging colors or sharpness

No argument there.

The Leaf interface (and boot time) is significantly slower. It's improved with a recent firmware update (which also featured an improved UI) but is still not as fast as the IQ. For clarity SHOOTING speeds are very similar. It's untethered use of the back's LCD (e.g. checking focus) which is faster on the IQ.

And the LCD is unarguably better on the IQ series. A difference more important the more you shoot untethered vs. tethered.

- every time I opened a file on C1 I was disapointed in have it looked -           color/sharpness/contrast

That sounds like an issue more of finding the right settings for you (and then setting those as the default style to import to) than anything else. But there are differences in default rendering and this can be an important consideration to some photographers. Frustratingly I can tell you from working with a lot of photographers that 10 different photographers often pick 10 different cameras as having the "best default rendering".

Overall I'd argue (and I think you'd agree) that your experience highlights the value of being able to do an evaluation rental or demo a back in a real world shooting scenario and/or work with a dealer who is flexible to you if and when you decide you've started off the wrong road.
« Last Edit: November 21, 2011, 01:21:44 pm by dougpetersonci »
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Brian Hirschfeld

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Re: IQ140 kit vs DM40
« Reply #9 on: November 27, 2011, 03:15:00 pm »

I'm turning in for the night but quick thoughts:

- Deciding on a kit that's right for you usually is and should be a slow well thought-out process. Individuals who rush it (or "jump" on a "great deal" that surfaces) often end up wishing they had taken more time. Beyond the initial cash outlay a medium format purchase commits you to a certain set of available lenses, accessories, software options, and upgrade paths - with time, money, and starting at the bottom of a new learning curve the penalty to change.

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[/size]

I agree with this. I first bought a Hasselbald H3Dii-39ms as my first mf digital camera and wasn't happy with the experience. I had read everything there was online and it seemed like this was a great system from a great manufacturer. The latter of these is true. Hasselblad is an amazing manufacturer and they have made some great products. I don't really think the Hasselblad H is one of them. For me the body was all wrong and I kind of knew that from the first day I had it. Anyway with the lenses I had swell as some I rented for certain jobs it was a good enough experience for a while and I took some great images with it.....

Then I looked at upgrading to something new....Hasselblad's upgrade paths suck, lets just agree on that....

Also I would like to say that all backs are not created equal. Even though these two backs have the same sensor or whatever, there is so much more that has to be taken into account. The PhaseOne actually works, the Leaf will give you nothing but grief. I don't know why but ever time I have tried out a leaf back, it hasn't worked and the few times they have worked, something went wrong using the leaf software etc and in the end there weren't even any usable images....oh and did I mention the leaf backs are built awfully? If you are going to spend your time in a studio photographing stamps all day or something I guess the Leaf could work...but if you actually want to go out and use it I would say IQ hands down....For starters, its a touchscreen....no stylus for you to loose in the first week....oh and also the battery on the IQ is internal, not attached to the bottom (a fact leaf neglects in all of their promotional photos....I wonder why...) and it still has external slots for a fan on the leaf....

The IQ is built amazingly to say the least, there is no plastic to be found anywhere on the back....(I'm basing all of this off my IQ180) and no complaints there.

The touchscreen really does work like the touchscreen on my iPhone or iPad....its a little less responsive, but then again its pushing around 220mb files so I can't really complain. It functions, and scrolls perfectly and effortlessly. Initially it is slightly less intuitive then the P+ backs because some functions are controlled by touchscreen and some are by the 4 button layout (shared with the P)...but there are so few functions on the back (very leica-esque streamlined) that your used to it within a day...atleast I was....

Frankly I don't think there is a contest between these two backs. You are lucky though that you are not trying to decide between a PhaseOne DF - Leica S2 - Hasselblad back like I was since you can actually mount the backs on the same camera and compare them which is what I would do if you have the opportunity because you can take a test image with the same body and lens settings and then change the back quite easily...

If you asked me, as long as you have some basic lenses and this isn't central to your needs....get the IQ.
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