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Author Topic: paper profile from company vs color space from camera  (Read 1100 times)

douvidl

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paper profile from company vs color space from camera
« on: November 18, 2011, 03:58:35 pm »

Just did a test of using Ilford Gold Fibre Silk profile vs srgb profile.  To my eye the definition and color was truer using srgb profile..Is this a reasonable conclusion.  If so, why bother with all of the paper profile and just stick with the camera color space?
David
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digitaldog

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Re: paper profile from company vs color space from camera
« Reply #1 on: November 18, 2011, 04:08:51 pm »

You can’t send the camera color space directly to the printer, it has to be transformed somewhere, somehow. Yes, you can ‘send’ sRGB to the print driver without selecting a specific paper profile (application manages color) but none the less, that sRGB data gets transformed in the driver to *some* output color space.
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douvidl

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Re: paper profile from company vs color space from camera
« Reply #2 on: November 18, 2011, 04:13:20 pm »

If so, and I use a 5d2 and an epson 3880 and I set the image profile, the monitor profile and the print screen profile to sRGB, what gets transformed where and to what?
Appreciate you efforts to clear up the mud.
Remember, please my original post.
David
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Randy Carone

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Re: paper profile from company vs color space from camera
« Reply #3 on: November 18, 2011, 04:47:40 pm »

If you are using sRGB, you are limiting the total gamut of your image. I'd set the camera (and PS working color space) to Adobe RGB (1998), at least, and ProPhoto RGB if the camera gives you that option. The sRGB color space is fine for web images but very limiting as a printer profile. You may get lucky and get good results from your printer, but I'd bet that at some point, you will print an image and won't be happy with the results of sending sRGB to the printer. The best results you will get from your printer, over the long haul and with a variety of images, will be for the application (PhotoShop) to manage colors and select the manufacturers printer profile for the paper you are using.
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Randy Carone

digitaldog

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Re: paper profile from company vs color space from camera
« Reply #4 on: November 18, 2011, 04:48:21 pm »

If so, and I use a 5d2 and an epson 3880 and I set the image profile, the monitor profile and the print screen profile to sRGB, what gets transformed where and to what?

The display profile is divorced from how you edit your images or the content of those images (sRGB, Adobe RGB etc). It is used to properly preview whatever image you are working with. It is just another device in the chain that uses it’s own profile, in this case to preview all images you edit in an ICC aware application.
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Wayne Fox

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Re: paper profile from company vs color space from camera
« Reply #5 on: November 18, 2011, 05:33:53 pm »

The idea of color management is to characterize various devices with differing output characteristics by measuring what happens when specific colors are sent to those devices and create a profile for that device, then use the profile to transform the data to get what we expect rather than just what the numbers are (within the limitations of the device).  sRGB is not an output profile.  if your camera is creating an sRGB file, you want the color management system to transform those numbers through the monitor profile.  Even if the monitor is an "sRGB" monitor you still want to create a profile for it, not use sRGB. 
An sRGB monitor just means is the monitors gamut is large enough to show all the colors of sRGB ... but those colors won't line up perfectly.

As far as the printer if send a file to the printer and then let the printer manage colors, even if that image is sRGB, you have told the printer driver to manage the transform.  so rather than managing it yourself, you've let the printer firmware designer do it.  but it isn't being printed as "sRGB" ... it's being transformed by the printer driver.

You could send an sRGB file and have neither the OS, Photoshop, or the printer driver manage colors, but that would be a simple crap shoot ... most likely resulting in crap.  It would be challenging to get any consistency.

But for best results, using the entire system correctly without trying to "shortcut" something because it seems to work is the best way to get some type of predictable results from screen to print.   May want to check out LuLa' Guide to Color Management ...
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Alan Goldhammer

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Re: paper profile from company vs color space from camera
« Reply #6 on: November 18, 2011, 06:01:58 pm »

Just did a test of using Ilford Gold Fibre Silk profile vs srgb profile.  To my eye the definition and color was truer using srgb profile..Is this a reasonable conclusion.  If so, why bother with all of the paper profile and just stick with the camera color space?
David
I think you also have a misunderstanding of the "camera color space."  The LCD on the rear of your camera must have a color space that you can select via the menu on almost all DSLRs (my Nikon offers either sRGB or AdobeRGB).  This color space can be used by the camera's computer to render the color space into the JPG or TIFF image (assuming the camera can process the image into a TIFF).  It does not do anything to the RAW file if you are shooting in RAW.  The RAW file will be interpolated by the photo processing software that you are using (if you use a camera manufacturers software such as Nikon's your selection does make a difference.  Wayne Fox offers a good explanation about what a profile does and does not do but there is really no "camera color space."
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mfryd

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Re: paper profile from company vs color space from camera
« Reply #7 on: November 18, 2011, 06:18:03 pm »

If you are happy with your workflow and your results, there is nothing wrong with sending sRGB to the printer, and letting the printer driver handle compensating for the paper in use.

There's nothing wrong with using a canned profile that meets your needs (even if the profile was intended for a different paper).


The risk that you run is that such a workflow limits your options.  Change your paper (or your printer) and you may no longer be able to get satisfactory results.

A properly managed color workflow, with matching color profiles will give you a wider choice of papers, and a much closer color match.   Not everyone needs this flexibility, and many people are happy with "pleasing" color, (even though it may not be 100% correct.)
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