Epson AWB mode and Metamerism

[Kukulcan]

Hi guys,

I have a doubt... is it possible experiencing illuminant metamerism issues with prints made by an Epson 7900/9900 using ABW Epson printing mode(only black and grey inks)?

The question arises because I received a B&W print from a lab and I can see a green cast visible only under tungsten light. The print is made on a Canson Baryta by an Epson 7900 (or 9900). I don't know anything about the workflow used by the lab.

What do you think? According to you, this lab used all inks and just because of this there's a metamerism problem, or metamerism can arise anyway, even using only black and grey inks in AWB mode?

Since I'm going to buy an Epson R3000, I'd like to know in advance whether the AWB mode can guarantee free of metamerism issues prints. I have to say that some other prints, made by another lab with carbon Piezography inks (on HM Bright White), are absolutely free of any color cast under any types of light.

[Randy Carone]

Epson's ABW mode uses all the blacks and light blacks along with Yellow, Lt. Cyan and Vivid Lt. Magenta. No Cyan, Vivid Magenta, Orange and Green so you may experience a color cast from the use of the three color cartridges.

[Kukulcan]

Oh thanks, I didn't know about the yellow,  Lt cyan and Lt Vivid in AWB. So even if the lab used AWB, there's still chances of slight green cast originating from yellow and Lt Cyan... Is it correct?

Anyway I tested the same print made by a cheap minilab and it's of course uncomparable, but above all, the minilab one has a reddish cast ALWAYS visible under any light, while the green cast of Canson Baryta one is visible(to me) ONLY under tungsten light.

Are there any other affordable possibilies to print free of color cast, or metamerism, without buying and setting a printer only with special B&W inks?

Thank you!

[Jeff Magidson]

Just to confirm... yes Epson ABW prints do exhibit minimal metamerism. The earlier Epson inkset (before Ultrachrome K3), showed MUCH worse metamerism. I don't know of any inkjet printing process that is free of metamerism except for using a dedicated B&W inkset. I believe Colorbyte's Imageprint RIP claims zero metamerism in B&W mode but the RIP is very expensive and I have not tested it.

~ Jeff
 
http://artslidesboston.com
 

[Sven W]

Follow this thread and the link.

/Sven

[John Nollendorfs]

HP Z32100 printing in B&W mode  does not show any metamerism. HP has balanced their gray inks to neutral, so no color inks are used. However, if you decide to tone your B&W image by printing in color, yes you will notice metamerism, depending on how you shift the color.

The dead neutral results using just HP's black and gray inks is very good, with no need to go to a custom B&W inkset, unless you are looking for a particular type of look.

BTW, I had to make a B&W print for a museum matching an image that had been printed originally on Fuji Crystal Archive via light jet--what a night mare! The Crystal Archive print metamerized in one direction. The HP metamerized in another direction. Finally convinced the museum that the best bet would be to print in all gray mode, which of course did not match the Crystal Archive print, but at least it was neutral and stayed that way no matter which light source you viewed it under. Yes, the original image was B&W!

[Farmer]

For folks using only black/grey inks (in any method) without any colour input at all, how do you deal with the colour of the paper?

[MHMG]

For folks using only black/grey inks (in any method) without any colour input at all, how do you deal with the colour of the paper?

You choose your paper wisely 

Humor aside, monochrome inks and media combinations behave much like relative rendering with color images, in other words, the media color plays a strong role in the highlight tint but then feathers off as the tones get darker and darker. That said, the inks will also exhibit different functional hues on various media that cannot be explained solely by underlying media color. It has to do with the chemical/physical interaction between the microporous coating layer and the ink set.  Hence, there is indeed an aesthetic choice one must make by choosing a paper that suits your taste when also combined with the chosen monochrome ink set.

cheers,
Mark

[Paul2660]

Since I followed the advice in a previous post on leaving the image in sRGB and using "let printer manage colors" on the Epson AWB driver, I have found the results to be very good, on both RC and Fiber paper.  So far I mainly use Canon Platine, Epson Exhibition fiber, and Moab Lasal glossy. 

Very little metamerism if any on the prints from the 9900 with photo black.  I have not tried matte black.  I use using QTR on my 9880 but have not downloaded the version that supports the 9900, mainly since so far I really have not seen the need. 

Paul Caldwell

[Kukulcan]

Thanks guys for all your answers! Good to know about imageprint, I read also the other thread suggested and very interesting reviews about it, but it's beyond my budget, as well as the HP large format Z3200 (far beyond my needs as a beginner amateur).

Anyway I think the quality I can get by an Epson R3000 is enough at the moment, and I'll have still to check the B&W neutrality in ABW mode compared to the normal one, since I suppose my greenish cast print was not printed in ABW mode....

Again, thanks!

Giuseppe

[deanwork]

I've been printing with the Canon IPF 8300 and True Black And White  rip  all this week. I've been doing a lot of large prints with subtle light tonalities in fabric subjects and totally black backgrounds that were scans of 8x10 film

The prints on both Harmon Baryta and Canson Rag Photographique are stellar. Just gorgeous perfect neutrality, almost silvery, and 0 metamerism and not even the hint of a color cast or color crossover that I've always seen with ABW, and I've looked very closely. Not warmish, not bluish, not greenish or magentaish, just pure bw. And their curves for warm tone are a pure single warm tone, not the odd warm distribution I see with a lot of rgb pigment monochrome, that just looks kind of dirty and mucked up.

When I looked at the ink graphics that TBW dsplays for the Canon neutral curve, channel by channel, I see that the only inks being used are light gray, gray and black. I was shocked that this kind of tonality came out of a tri-tone of a 12 ink set but it did. It resembles the 6 channel neutral inks I was using last year. I wrote the tech support at BowHaus and they confirmed that only three inks are being used. They said, "pretty cool huh" and I said your damn right.

john

[Farmer]

You choose your paper wisely 

Humor aside, monochrome inks and media combinations behave much like relative rendering with color images, in other words, the media color plays a strong role in the highlight tint but then feathers off as the tones get darker and darker. That said, the inks will also exhibit different functional hues on various media that cannot be explained solely by underlying media color. It has to do with the chemical/physical interaction between the microporous coating layer and the ink set.  Hence, there is indeed an aesthetic choice one must make by choosing a paper that suits your taste when also combined with the chosen monochrome ink set.

:-)

Thanks, Mark - useful feedback - appreciate it!

[Ernst Dinkla]

Canson Baryta Photographique is not completely OBA free. Next to the little color ink used in ABW mode it could add to some "metamerism".

On paper choices with grey ink only B&W printing. Next to the right paper choice there is the color toning possible with HP's B&W driver mode. Something I miss with a HP K5400 Officejet Pro loaded with the Z's four Vivera pigment grey inks. On a natural white offset paper the Lab b value is only neutral in the mid range and shifts to yellow at both paper white and maximum black. The last surprises me somewhat but this is not an inkjet coated paper and the Dmax is just 1.32. With the same inks and an inkjet coated paper the total is more neutral. An illustration to Mark's comment on color shifts due to the media used but not related to the paper white itself.

Ernst Dinkla

[Alan Goldhammer]

You can see how much of the colored ink the Epson 3800 (I know this is an older model) uses in the ABW mode here.

[Schewe]

Since I'm going to buy an Epson R3000, I'd like to know in advance whether the AWB mode can guarantee free of metamerism issues prints.

You are misusing the term metamerism. What you are referring to is metameric failure–the inability to have a metameric match under different different spectral illumination. And the R3000 has very little if any metameric failure when using the ABW mode.

[Kukulcan]

Thanks Schewe! Metameric failure... I knew just metamerism was not correct but when I opened the thread, I couldn't remember the exact name of the phenomenon.

Considered your post and all other comments in this thread and reviews read, the Epson R3000 is perfect for me! very high print quality also in B&W, and pretty affordable compared to pro-printer prices...

[deanwork]

Whatever the politically correct term is, Epson ABW using color pigments have it and Canon 8300 with BawHaus True Black and White doesn't for totally neutral, clean results on both rag matte and fiber gloss. The difference is night and day.