Pages: 1 2 3 [4] 5 6   Go Down

Author Topic: Urban landscape with RED Epic done by Peter Lik  (Read 31830 times)

yaya

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1254
    • http://yayapro.com
Re: Urban landscape with RED Epic done by Peter Lik
« Reply #60 on: October 31, 2011, 08:10:13 am »


Q and why are crocodiles so flat? ...

A: They were in the desert at 3pm when the elephants were practicing parachute jumping  :D

PS got a crocodile joke I have to send you...
Logged
Yair Shahar | Product Manager | Phase One - Cultural Heritage
e: ysh@phaseone.com |

fredjeang

  • Guest
Re: Urban landscape with RED Epic done by Peter Lik
« Reply #61 on: October 31, 2011, 09:04:30 am »

And if the Elephants did crocodiles aerial photography from their parachutes, they used an Epic or a Leaf ?
Logged

ChristopherBarrett

  • Guest
Re: Urban landscape with RED Epic done by Peter Lik
« Reply #62 on: October 31, 2011, 10:28:03 am »

As to these cameras being more cumbersome, unwieldily than your average Pro rig...

Yeah, I dunno about that...  extremely modular.  Setup here for lightweight Stills shooting and mounted for a vertical.
Logged

Graeme Nattress

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 584
    • http://www.nattress.com
Re: Urban landscape with RED Epic done by Peter Lik
« Reply #63 on: October 31, 2011, 11:32:14 am »

To answer a few things:

HDRx mode - in camera we capture two co-joined frames with two different shutter speeds. So although there is a temporal difference between the two exposures it's small enough to be of little practical consequence.

HDRx was not needed for the Vegas shot - the cameras native DR was enough to make it work. The visual look is obviously the choice of Peter Lik, so the key thing to take from this as such looks are not everyone's cup of tea, is that the RED camera allowed Peter to get the look he wanted.

Graeme
Logged

cunim

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 130
Re: Urban landscape with RED Epic done by Peter Lik
« Reply #64 on: October 31, 2011, 12:18:01 pm »

What I see from Red users on this site is inspiring, but I have concerns.  Today, innovative photographers are making the investment to incorporate motion into their business models.  They are trying to do more with less (equipment, staff, skills and money) to respond to market demand for medium quality motion and motion+still capabitlity.  The investment, while less than a few years ago, remains high so the hope is that their new niche is protected.  Sort of like photography used to be before digital, or like motion post production was just a few years ago.  Professions with an entry barrier.  By the way, I know what a photographer or a videographer is, but what do you call a photographer/videographer who supplies motion + still, both at the pro level?  A mophot?  Photvid?  Maybe just an imager.

You see where I am going with this.  Early adopters are taking advantage of the very same technical developments that will soon become accessible to a broad user base.  At that point, motion becomes a widespread training program for college courses, an easy addition for local studios, something that amateurs can do almost as well as the pros - or in some cases better.  Sure, pros with SOA equipment and skills will continue to get the major corporate clients, just as they do today. With luck, the more business-savvy imagers of today will evolve into tomorrow's leaders and retain revenue protection.  However, clients don't change.  The vast majority couldn't afford SOA services even if they did care about them.  In the new age cheap motion will be for and by everyone, just as still photography is today.  I wonder where that will leave imagers.  Will they rise to the top of a new profession that builds on skills arising from photography, or will the videographers take this niche?

Reading this, I realize I have too much time on my hands.

Peter
Logged

fredjeang

  • Guest
Re: Urban landscape with RED Epic done by Peter Lik
« Reply #65 on: October 31, 2011, 01:12:11 pm »

but what do you call a photographer/videographer who supplies motion + still, both at the pro level?  A mophot?  Photvid?  Maybe just an imager.

I like image maker.

This is not new: http://www.eugeniorecuenco.com/

This guy has been doing both for ages at the highest ww level.

why barriers? labels? limitations?
Logged

bcooter

  • Guest
Re: Urban landscape with RED Epic done by Peter Lik
« Reply #66 on: October 31, 2011, 01:51:14 pm »

snip......
You see where I am going with this.  Early adopters are taking advantage of the very same technical developments that will soon become accessible to a broad user base.  At that point, motion becomes a widespread training program for college courses, ........snip

I think your reading this somewhat front to back.

It's not just that motion cameras with larger frames are more accessible, or easier to use than large engs or film cameras, it's just that the market for commercial images has added (or some say moved) into electronic distribution which means an advertiser or publisher can decide to move an image or not, have it talk or be silent, have a sound score or foley sound, or do a multi media combination that has everything.

In regards to doing more with less equipment and less talent, well the talent part I'll object to, the equipment and resource part is partly a reflection of digital, but mostly a reflection of the economy.  Still or motion, everyone shoots more sessions in a day and this drive for return is not limited to the creative arts, because every client I know that doesn't work nights and weekends, calls me at some point asking if I've heard of any job leads.

Sure they're are exceptions to every rule and there will always be a Michael Bay with a 4 year time frame and a 400 million dollar budget, but I and most people are not Michael Bay and the cameras really never changed that.  Most of Hollywood is not Michael Bay either as episodic Television and movies are shot with less crew, faster turnaround, less over the top resources. 

You stick your nose in a sound stage today and you don't see 35 people standing around, they're all working and usually multi tasking. 

What is important is client's awareness.

Once client's realized that they could get 12 still sessions instead of 2 per day, or 16 instead of 4, then that's what they asked for and that becomes the standard.  Once they begin to realize they can get motion imagery, then that's the standard and now that they can get a useable still image from a motion camera, that's another request.

Yair mentions he'd rather see a still image shot with a still camera.  Same here, but if your shooting sound, may setups, multiple cameras and even has a still photographer on set, sometimes the stills get pushed back.  There is only so many hours in the day, so much time on set, so much money in the budget and then that's where a decent still capture comes in.

But Yair, this is where you medium format boys come in.  How about a 30mpx movie camera that goes to 1000 iso and shoots motion and still the same time?

That way you don't have to think about this image from RED and really, no offense meant to anyone, but professional still cameras are still relying on the same 10 year old base platforms, off the shelf sensors and usually some warmed over lenses.

I mean it took Phase how long to finally get a camera lcd that you could tell the gender of a subject and only the Pentax has the horsepower to produce an in camera jpeg. 

That's after 10 years of asking.

In regards to everyone and their pet having a camera that shoots motion and stills, they already do . . . the i phone . . . and though the camera doesn't dictate creativity, what you do with it does.

The things is still imagery is the same but different than motion imagery.  You can work a still with a reasonable amount of budget and with the right retouching it will be more than good.   With motion you can do the same, but I promise you it costs a lot more money and regardless of how much faster computer systems become, it's still a very slow process.   

IMO

BC
Logged

fredjeang

  • Guest
Re: Urban landscape with RED Epic done by Peter Lik
« Reply #67 on: October 31, 2011, 02:28:42 pm »

.... , no offense meant to anyone, but professional still cameras are still relying on the same 10 year old base platforms, off the shelf sensors and usually some warmed over lenses. ....


What ?

James, if one day you get tired of images, wich I hope you won't, you can always make a successful reconvertion in diplomacy. This part is very very politicaly correct.

Another zero could almost fit in the words bolbed...

All they did was replaced the film by a sensor and a bunch of enhancements priced as a car. And since there, all they did was to put steroids in those digital films and almost nothing in body design, usability and compatibility -(and the only one that did it like Contax have sunk ironicaly)- and absolutly nothing in convergence; and to be fair with MF, that's also vastly the case for DSLRs except their steps in motion and still they think like 50 years (at least) ago for the most part, Canon included.

We buy them because there was nothing else to buy, and they know it.

If there is an industry that made huge amount of money with 80 years based designs is indeed the image industry and specially the photographic industry in the production area, and the video industry in the post-production.

IMO, that is why Red, or those new little cameras like the GH2 and NEX are so refreshing because the current panorama is more than dusty. IMHO.  
« Last Edit: October 31, 2011, 05:29:01 pm by fredjeang »
Logged

cunim

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 130
Re: Urban landscape with RED Epic done by Peter Lik
« Reply #68 on: October 31, 2011, 03:28:54 pm »

Fred, thank you for the link.  What fantastic work!  I do prefer the stills to the motion but that is just my taste.  Do you have other links you can recommend to show "image makers" operating at such high levels?

BC, I did not mean to imply anything about talent, just about skills.  My interest is in photography as a profession, as opposed to equipment, and my limited exposure to motion has been in entertainment, where the end user is the viewing public.  I believe you are suggesting that electronic media will expose more of that client base to creative types who do not follow the traditional production route - which needs massive configurations of physical and intellectual resources.  That is exactly the point I am interested in.  If technology allows small houses to create competitive mass entertainment, if talent can become the primary requirement, we could be looking at a new golden age of cinema/motion/ err.. whatever it is.   It isn't impossible - it happens today - but it is very rare. Or highly specialized (porn, some documentaries). 

There are dangers.  Look at post-production, for example, where so many of the smaller houses are going through the same type of professional erosion that photographers went through a decade ago.  Will that erosion spread to other specialties - particularly direction and cinematography?  Will the image maker skill set evolve into a new profession that involves people trained in photography, or will the need be met from the motion end?  Will technology and changing public expectations so reduce the entry barrier that we will be swamped with motion productions and producers?  Don't know, but we are in interesting times.
Logged

fredjeang

  • Guest
Re: Urban landscape with RED Epic done by Peter Lik
« Reply #69 on: October 31, 2011, 05:37:42 pm »

Fred, thank you for the link.  What fantastic work!  I do prefer the stills to the motion but that is just my taste.  Do you have other links you can recommend to show "image makers" operating at such high levels?

BC, I did not mean to imply anything about talent, just about skills.  My interest is in photography as a profession, as opposed to equipment, and my limited exposure to motion has been in entertainment, where the end user is the viewing public.  I believe you are suggesting that electronic media will expose more of that client base to creative types who do not follow the traditional production route - which needs massive configurations of physical and intellectual resources.  That is exactly the point I am interested in.  If technology allows small houses to create competitive mass entertainment, if talent can become the primary requirement, we could be looking at a new golden age of cinema/motion/ err.. whatever it is.   It isn't impossible - it happens today - but it is very rare. Or highly specialized (porn, some documentaries).  

There are dangers.  Look at post-production, for example, where so many of the smaller houses are going through the same type of professional erosion that photographers went through a decade ago.  Will that erosion spread to other specialties - particularly direction and cinematography?  Will the image maker skill set evolve into a new profession that involves people trained in photography, or will the need be met from the motion end?  Will technology and changing public expectations so reduce the entry barrier that we will be swamped with motion productions and producers?  Don't know, but we are in interesting times.

I think the keyword BC mentionned is "multitask".

The new techs-creators are multitask - multilenguages.

And for that we need the appropriate tools and PP workflows that we don't have really yet but equipments that are still smelling the old way (it's good to have some bases, history; it's bad to be stucked on them).

Yes, I think a golden age is comming, indeed.


About Recuenco, a truth photographer-cineast that is really good at both at this level, there are very few. A couple of people in video-art. The list is short. I follow James Russell in this forum and like both his stills-videos and sure that he will grow and succeed in motion even much more than with stills. C.Barrett when not busy buying new exciting toys...sorry, gear, (ups...) have a lot to say in motion too. Just in this forum there are some people that will be great "image-makers" because whatever they touch, it works.

« Last Edit: October 31, 2011, 05:56:28 pm by fredjeang »
Logged

Graham Mitchell

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2281
Re: Urban landscape with RED Epic done by Peter Lik
« Reply #70 on: October 31, 2011, 05:46:07 pm »

only the Pentax has the horsepower to produce an in camera jpeg. 

Small correction - the Sinar eSprit65LV offered in-camera DNG, JPEG, and RAW.
Logged

Nick Rains

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 705
    • http://www.nickrains.com
Re: Urban landscape with RED Epic done by Peter Lik
« Reply #71 on: October 31, 2011, 05:57:47 pm »

Small correction - the Sinar eSprit65LV offered in-camera DNG, JPEG, and RAW.

Don't forget the Leica S2, DNG and Jpeg. Not sure why you'd need it but it's there.
Logged
Nick Rains
Australian Photographer Leica

ondebanks

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 858
Re: Urban landscape with RED Epic done by Peter Lik
« Reply #72 on: October 31, 2011, 06:40:12 pm »

and only the Pentax has the horsepower to produce an in camera jpeg.

That's after 10 years of asking.


And yet one more! The Kodak MFDBs were producing in-camera Jpegs & Tiffs from the Raws 9 years ago. (Why do people keep forgetting how innovative they were...)

Ray
Logged

bcooter

  • Guest
Re: Urban landscape with RED Epic done by Peter Lik
« Reply #73 on: November 01, 2011, 04:23:48 am »

And yet one more! The Kodak MFDBs were producing in-camera Jpegs & Tiffs from the Raws 9 years ago. (Why do people keep forgetting how innovative they were...)

Ray

With all due respect, I was commenting on popular cameras and backs still in use by professionals.

The only two Esprit camera/backs I've seen didn't work.  One at Javitz that wasn't ready due to firmware, one at Samy's that wasn't charged.  Maybe they sell Sinar's in Europe, but I've seen virtually none in the U.S. and don't know any rental house that considered them.

Yes, Leica makes a jpeg and has a nice screen, (though if you consider this medium format this is still 10 years later than what was asked by photographers and I don't know many professionals using S-2's.. 

Now the Kodak proback is interesting.  I used it early on, didn't buy it because it would moire wardrobe like crazy, would overheat and shut down and had a somewhat limited lcd, in comparison to Kodak's dcs 760 which was a camera that was an inch away from being a better 1ds.

Anyway, nothing Kodak did then or since then has made any sense so I assume there was something going on behind the scenes we don't know about.  Could have been bad business deals, could have been Kodak didn't own any camera platforms.  Somebody knows, but I don't.

Regardless of all of this your still talking about decades old camera platforms.  The HY6 has a lot of lineage from the 6008 and still needs more autofocus lenses, the Mamiya is still a Mamiya and the Hasselblad though improved still is based on a design from the film days.

IMO

BC
Logged

rainer_v

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1194
    • http://www.tangential.de
Re: Urban landscape with RED Epic done by Peter Lik
« Reply #74 on: November 01, 2011, 04:01:02 pm »


Because if your thinking like a client on a production that is shot in both stills and motion, here's the process.

They first select their favorite stills and corresponding motion clips for the creative brief.

Then we go into post production, editing and retouching on stills, editing and coloring and effects for motion.

Somewhere in this process someone scrubs through a quicktime movie, stops it and sends a screen shot.  In our case usually 2 dozen screen shots and says "this would make a great still, can you make a still image of it?".

My answer with the RED is yes and though some of the images are technically spectacular, some are more challenged, the client is happy, actually over the moon happy because they had more selection.

IMO

BC


how you describe your workflow sounds really convincing james, no question that the usage of the red has a lot of sense in your business and that the red made, or will make, somehow a revolution in your busines.
once more i realize how different is our work, although it takes the same name "photography".
and it looks like that the equipment for the different jobs in the wide land of prof. photography gets even more specialized and different than it was anytime before.
Logged
rainer viertlböck
architecture photograp

Graeme Nattress

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 584
    • http://www.nattress.com
Re: Urban landscape with RED Epic done by Peter Lik
« Reply #75 on: November 01, 2011, 11:51:12 pm »

So I got to see the actual print today. It's 10ft long and rather stunning. I don't think the small JPEG does it justice at all.

Graeme
Logged

bcooter

  • Guest
Re: Urban landscape with RED Epic done by Peter Lik
« Reply #76 on: November 03, 2011, 04:33:04 am »

how you describe your workflow sounds really convincing james, no question that the usage of the red has a lot of sense in your business and that the red made, or will make, somehow a revolution in your busines.
once more i realize how different is our work, although it takes the same name "photography".
and it looks like that the equipment for the different jobs in the wide land of prof. photography gets even more specialized and different than it was anytime before.



Rainer,

In a business sense, I doubt if our needs are that much different.

I guess it comes down to if you offer something clients use it, if you don't they obviously don't ask.

Right now, all clients large and small have a voracious appetite for content.  Motion, still, combination, for every type of use.

We all see TV commercials and web spots that look like they're shot with cell phones, other's that look like they have a Ridley Scott budget, but at the end of the day, everyone is asking for imagery from every project we do.

It's funny, two days ago when I was writing my reply, I had an email from a client's design group that was doing displays for a large function.  They wanted to know if the RED stills from a recent project would enlarge properly.

"Properly" covers a lot of territory, so this week we made a web gallery linked to medium and large jpegs from RED, 5d2 and 1ds3 images from this last project.

Except for the shape of the format, even I can't tell the difference and I shot most of it.  It doesn't mean a 5d2 or a larger still camera won't reproduce well or better than a RED motion still, but most of the detail in the image had more to do with focus, exposure, lighting, cropping, shutter speed, etc. than the actual pixel count or camera.

The next day the multi media agency from this client e-mailed asking from footage from the same project.

Now I'm not advocating everyone buy a RED, but I do know that with web, social media, large format displays and every medium, that requires a "non media buy"  clients are creative ways get their message out and the need for imagery from every project, in every format is strong.

Whether the economy improves or not, you'll soon see all forms of digital project from led panels to projectors and once again, the media needs will change or better put the mediums we will be required to shoot with will have to offer multiple types of content.

To relay an interesting story, about 5 years ago I requested the digital tech from the shoot to backup and hold the project as an extra offsite safety net.  One Saturday I got a rush call from the client that had to have 5 images immediately and I was on the road, my retouchers were out and I couldn't get to our on line servers to collect the raws so I called the tech and asked him to pull the images.  He never backed them up and once I questioned him to why he said, "nobody ever asks me for an image after a project" .   I rephrased my question again and asked if they NEVER asked him for an image but never asked him twice.  

He said twice, which meant since he didn't offer it, nobody asked again.  It also meant he wasn't someone I hired often.

Not to hijack this thread and go off topic, one thing that is interesting is talk of camera size.  We hired a stedicam operator for next weeks project and he say she loves the RED ONE because it's so small.  Now I think the RED one is huge, the arri monstrous and he thinks that anything under a Panaflex is a small camera, so a lot of this is relative.

In a prefect world I would love to see every image in every scenario captured on every type of camera at once (so would most clients) but since medium format doesn't do high iso very well, smaller still cameras don't do the best motion, it is  difficult to find a one camera fits all solution or the time and budget to recreate every situation multiple times.

IMO

BC

« Last Edit: November 03, 2011, 04:38:24 am by bcooter »
Logged

rainer_v

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1194
    • http://www.tangential.de
Re: Urban landscape with RED Epic done by Peter Lik
« Reply #77 on: November 03, 2011, 01:24:25 pm »



Rainer,

In a business sense, I doubt if our needs are that much different.

I guess it comes down to if you offer something clients use it, if you don't they obviously don't ask.

Right now, all clients large and small have a voracious appetite for content.  Motion, still, combination, for every type of use.

IMO

BC



i guess you are right. i also started some time ago to shoot videos, to make time lapses and searched viewing angles from architecture. i simply didn't offered it because i didn't felt at the point where it seemed to me to make sense,- of course i speak here only for me and my way to see and to offer architecture.
but i am aware that video is in the photo market and i am aware also that it will become more and more important.  so i am still at the beginning of a learning curve here.
what i write about here ref. about the red and this for my needs only, - so i can't see sense for me to buy or to use a red at this moment. last year i spoke with a rental company to rent one for accompanying a big project i shoot at this moment with video.
i came to so much limitations at that time that i didn't went on this route ( in the first place the size of the sensor didn't give enough shift lenses to go wide enough, second i use very often working platforms on trucks - it looked to me too complicate to do that with the red and the mf equipment together ) .
it reminds me to the time of mf in 2005 when the schneider 24xl came out. this was the first moment i saw its possible to use mf digital for my shooting, although several people did it already and of course in fashion or advertisement and studio several years it was more and more common to go digital. i didn't liked it before the 24xl for being too limited.
so i see that some people already work with the reds ( talk about photographers here  ) but i don't see how this camera can add something useful for my style of shooting and working.
but i am sure the moment will come for me where i will start to make videos as well and where i will offer them to clients.
first time now i can see this with this upcoming photo drone which i will use in a few days first time. with this i start to have an imagination what to do,- and thats not a bad start....
but again for this a red is a bit too huge,- and once more i am just in the beginning.

i am not discussing here with you or anyone if the red is a great tool. i am sure it is,- just not for me, just not at this moment.
and its very interesting to read here your reflections and experiences, thanks for sharing this.
it is important to get aware where the train is moving, staying behind is not the right position in our times.


« Last Edit: November 03, 2011, 01:34:58 pm by rainer_v »
Logged
rainer viertlböck
architecture photograp

fredjeang

  • Guest
Re: Urban landscape with RED Epic done by Peter Lik
« Reply #78 on: November 03, 2011, 02:13:40 pm »

In my, still limited, experience, as I manipulate Red files that aren't shooted by me, and can compare DSLR and EVIL footage shooted by me,
I'm seeing the differences clearly in the workflow and why Red is so interesting.

Stricktly talking about commercial, I think that the tendency is reversing priorities. Not a long time ago, we needed top stills and some extras "good-enough" movies. But now the tendency is that they ask for better and better videos with "good enough" stills.

We shouldn't forget this: do you remember not a long time ago when we where all shooting with the 17MP 1D ? And it was still a time of printing and printing. Nobody complained. You get a 16 MP GH2 now (or any other Canon 600 bucks entry-level) and I bet anyone if it would be possible in a blind test to say wich is wich in a double-page magazine print.
I say that because the output of the GH2 is almost identical in quality to the "old" 1D...it makes think...

If we had good enough print quality (I'm still talking about commercial here...) with 17MP, if zillion of editorials and sport, press etc...have been successfully published with this camera with zero complains, and since then, the tech has evolved so much that a smaller 16 MP sensor feature potentially the same quality...you follow me?

Back to the Red, the advantages is that you can extract good enough still quality, and even very good still quality, that it takes Raw and Raw video allows much more mistakes and room in pp. Then, the workflow is stable. For ex, tomorrow Canon or Pana will release new cameras with new AVCHD codec that nothing will read...and we'll be again chasing plug-ins and all the pathetic circus. Red no: R3D is R3D, whatever the generation is.
The DR of those cameras is impressive and they do not clip the highlights like dslrs. Details stand still.

The only downside IMO is the size (and the cost of the complete system) and with the Epic, much less of a buden.

Now, if DSLRs are coming with Raw video, if they allow exploitable image sequences and not so limited like now, that will be another story and maybe Red will not be the today's grail. But still, we'll have 2K to extract from video, Red has 4-5K.

But then, you can say that someone shoots with A camera motion, and other with B stills of the same. But in practise it doesn't work so well. That's why IMO, convergence is really the key of the future systems.
One camera for both. One software for both (there we are still very far). Red is probably the closest to date, at least his owner thinks that way. But there will be more and more systems and choices for sure.


« Last Edit: November 03, 2011, 02:42:48 pm by fredjeang »
Logged

JonathanRimmel

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 197
    • jonathanrimmel.com
Re: Urban landscape with RED Epic done by Peter Lik
« Reply #79 on: November 03, 2011, 03:15:52 pm »

It would seem RED is heading in the right direction with this camera. But I still don't see the hype, even from a videographer's point of view. (Granted I only worked as a videographer for about a year) Yes RAW video is a major plus, but more for professional videographers than anyone else. Most of the other formats are more than workable (some more than others of course).

Other camera's have exited me much more, such as the Sony NEXVG20 albeit from more of a video stand point. When I saw that camera I wanted one right away. But with this RED EPIC, I just don't see it. Why not just get a Nikon V1? That can take stills while shooting video. It's image quality isn't too bad either.

When ever a new piece of gear comes on the scene, I have to ask myself, is it necessary? Does it improve upon what is already out there? Or does it simply add to the confusion (so many variations of the same thing)? Bottom line: Why bother with the RED camera?
Logged
Pages: 1 2 3 [4] 5 6   Go Up