Rumormill: Hasselblad H4X Imminent

[bcooter]

For everyone that gets so heated at Hasselblad, they all seem to really want one.

I kind of don't get it about the open closed system, because until every back will fit on any camera and run in any software, to some extent every system is somewhat closed off.

I also don't get why the closed off thing is such a complaint.  Apple is completely closed loop and we all know how well they're doing, so given my choice of Apple of PC, I'd rather go the Apple route.

I also don't get some of the replies on this thread. 

I remember someone that was very pro phase one say to me a few years ago, "if Hasselblad wants to compete they should make a better digital back".

(I think from all reports they have).

My response to the reply was, "will phase make a better camera?".

(I think from all reports they are trying).

So in the end what does it matter?  If you have a burning desire to put a Phase back on a H series you can, you just have to buy a used H, trade it in and get a new one.

Personally, I think what Hasselblad did was good for the professional industry as it let rental houses and owners of used, worn H series upgrade their bodies while still keeping their equity in their H lenses (regardless of the digital back).

Just running the numbers, if I had a burning desire to add to my Contax backs and cameras and needed a leaf shutter camera, I'd just buy a Hd 40.  I think they go for a little under 20 grand.

When you compare the price of a $21,000 phase IQ 40, plus the cost of a used H series, plus the cost of a new H4 body, the numbers work better on the hasselblad side.

But to each his own, though as I said at the start, nothing keeps anyone from buying an H4 body and putting any back on it, if you want to spend the time and money.

IMO

BC

[DeeJay]

Yes it's true. They/I do want one. It's a good camera. What gets me about a move like this is there's no telling what the company will do next. Do I reinvest in a camera that I think is better or do I wait for a better safer option which I'm sure is not hat far off. What most likely people are angry about is that after buying hasselblad for almost 20 years and having been able to choose what ever back they want to use for as long as backs have been about, all of a sudden they say - No, you can't do that. Buy our back instead. After been told and convinced that Hasselblad was closed and in no way going back, people who preferred their aftermarket backs, because they believe them to be better, moved on at considerable investment elsewhere. Now, only a short few years later and they open it up again with some ridiculously hair brained corporate scheme dreamed up by monkeys with suits on just twists the knife again. It is indeed a joke.

It's the fact that every one wants one that they can do this and it smacks of corporate greed. Unless you are living under a rock, and most likely this company is, the world is still in recession and the world has changed because of it - People are savvy now, they know they are having the wool pooled over their eyes. People can see through this kinda crap now. Switch on the news right nowpand see the worlds reaction to it with the occupy Wall Street demonstrations that are happening world wide. It is the zeitgeist. It is not a timely business decision and one probably based on saving face from the previous cock up.

While it's not the end of the world you can understand why people aren't particularly happy and so long as these companies think that people are happy with this kind of rubbish they will continues to do so it and rob you blind.

[bcooter]

I don't own a hasselblad, don't have a dog in this hunt, but I don't get this  corporate greed thing everyone talks a about.

I kind of understood back in the early stages when we transitioned from film to digital stills, why people didn't like it when Hasselblad closed their system.  After all, most of us had a film mindset where we could put any film in any camera, but back then the film didn't costs 10 times more than the camera.

Now the "digital film" is the profit in camera making, so what's Hasselblad to do, make a system for their competitors?  

Actually Hasselblad and Sinar were the only two "digital film" makers who had completely open systems.  You could buy one of their backs and put it on almost any camera with an adapter, but for some reason the response wasn't that strong so they dropped it and went more proprietary.

Anyway.

With the "new" economy everyone in business protects their brand and maximizes profit.  (In reality the smart one's always have).

Since our studios are full production, I have a few calls from clients that say "uh, well, you know our uh VP wants to use this guy in NY and we were wondering if we could use your presser, camera operator, studio manager, editor, stylist, etc. etc..

My response though delicate is NO.  

It doesn't add to my business and it helps the competition.

If I was hasselblad, I'd do the same thing, heck I'd even find ways to make my position stronger, not weaker.

In fact I think the new economic world has proven that everyone is in competition.  If gas goes up, disneyland profits go down, if your kid needs braces you don't buy a bass boat, if some photographer buys a new phase back for their H camera he is less likely to buy new lenses.

So yes I understand the economy, but I also understand leveraging your strongest asset.

Hasselblad has the only removable prism, medium format, autofocus camera with a full autofocus, shuuter in lens set and the only one in the last 10 years that can say that.

That's a strength.

They are the only professional camera company that offers world wide shows and competitions for free and allows users of other medium format brands to enter.

That's not greed, that showcases the professional photography industry.

Check out the price of Hasselblad repairs next to the competition.  They are much more than competitive, so I don't see greed I see a company doing business with the thought of return customers.

But let's flip it .

Why doesn't Phase One offer their software for Hasselblad, Pentax and Leica tethering and processing?  They do for Canon and Nikon, they use to do it for Leica.

It's because Hasselblad, Pentax and Leica are competitors and Phase One's software is one of it's core assets, it's a strength and they use it.

So they should.



IMO

BC

[FlashDB]

Very well put BC

/David

[BernardLanguillier]

Hum... sorry, but this is pretty short term thinking.

Is Hasselblad in fact not helping Phaseone come up with a better platform by giving them no other option? Is the uniqueness of Hassy assets not going to end up being depreciated by having another competitive platform in town? With a bit of realism and respect you must reach the conclusion that the next Phaseone platform is going to be competitive 2 years down the road (I mean competitive as an MF platform).

Would it not have been better for Hassy to sell reasonnably affordable rights to use the Hassy platform so that every back sold by phase generates royalties for Hassy? That would have been a fair and reasonable settlement , a true win-win deal IMHO.

Now, these discussions did perhaps take place. If phaseone refused such an offer, they are in fact those de facto responsible for the closure of the Hassy platform.

Cheers,
Bernard

[ondebanks]

Hasselblad has the only removable prism, medium format, autofocus camera with a full autofocus, shuuter in lens set and the only one in the last 10 years that can say that.

Ummm...the Rollei 6008AF and Hy6/AFi meet all of those specs too.

Ray

[bcooter]

Ummm...the Rollei 6008AF and Hy6/AFi meet all of those specs too.

Ray

Your right, except there are no autofocus wide angle lenses, but the HY6 coulda/woulda been a game changer if it had more penetration in the market, especially rentals.

That's one of the most difficult thing about large production is how many backups you need, what do you buy, what do you rent.  Few people that don't need it weekly are going to buy a 28mm lens, or two extra bodies.

Once again this illustrates how every maker protects their own interest (which I think is fine).  Phase invested in Mamiya so that is their focus (not phocus).

Rollei or F+H or whoever owns the HY6 just never got out on the shelf early with everything in place and all back makers involved, especially Phase.

Regardless you can't blame a company for seeing after their own self interests.  I know my responsibility is to the people I pay so I do everything I can to leverage work in my favor.

I'm sure the owners and management of all the camera companies feel the same way. 


IMO

BC

[hubell]

Hum... sorry, but this is pretty short term thinking.

Is Hasselblad in fact not helping Phaseone come up with a better platform by giving them no other option? Is the uniqueness of Hassy assets not going to end up being depreciated by having another competitive platform in town? With a bit of realism and respect you must reach the conclusion that the next Phaseone platform is going to be competitive 2 years down the road (I mean competitive as an MF platform).

Would it not have been better for Hassy to sell reasonnably affordable rights to use the Hassy platform so that every back sold by phase generates royalties for Hassy? That would have been a fair and reasonable settlement , a true win-win deal IMHO.

Now, these discussions did perhaps take place. If phaseone refused such an offer, they are in fact those de facto responsible for the closure of the Hassy platform.


Cheers,
Bernard

That's a very interesting question, Bernard. However, for better or worse for both Hasselblad and Phase, this ship has sailed. Phase had to protect itself and bought Mamiya, which is apparently working on developing what I hope is truly an all new state of the art medium format camera platform. However, my hope here is tempered by the fact that the camera designers and engineers behind the new Phase camera are Mamiya legacy people, and there is nothing in the DNA of Mamiya that I find reassuring. This is not Leica, Hasselblad or Contax. It's Mamiya. Could Chevrolet design and engineer and produce a BMW? No way. Can Mamiya make its own version of a Leica S2 or an H4? We'll see.

[EricWHiss]

One of the justifications for closed systems has been the higher tolerances required.  One of the benefits of a such a closed system is the high quality DAC because most of the possible component combinations are known.      But I've never understood the tolerances part  - almost every high tolerance mechanical device that I can think of from my science and engineering days had some method for fine adjustment - shims or adjusting screws or something.  I keep thinking these closed systems must have that somewhere under the skin because otherwise how could they be calibrated initially at the factory?  If the manufacturers should make anything open, it should be this adjustment factor so that users or small shops can help users get their cameras and lenses calibrated properly and keep them so.  And the same for the DAC - why not provide the methods for users to build and share DAC's for alternative glass etc.  Now that would be "open".

[eronald]

On reflection, I'd say that the release of the H4x is the nicest thing that Hassy could do for MF photographers, and  their own dealers, and the nastiest thing they could do to to their competition.

Hats Off!

Edmund

[design_freak]

On reflection, I'd say that the release of the H4x is the nicest thing that Hassy could do for MF photographers, and  their own dealers, and the nastiest thing they could do to to their competition.

Hats Off!

Edmund

It would be so if the camera was available in regular sales 

[ghoonk]

On reflection, I'd say that the release of the H4x is the nicest thing that Hassy could do for MF photographers, and  their own dealers, and the nastiest thing they could do to to their competition.

Hats Off!

Edmund

At the risk of sounding like a newbie, how does this hurt the competition?

If I already have a P1 H back, I may consider a H4X body only if I need TrueFocus/TrueExposure. If I need 1/4000s shutter speeds with flash sync at 1/1600, I'd go with a DF body with the LS lenses. I haven't found anything really special about the Hasselblad backs (IAA?). With a H4X body and a P1 back, the convenience of a single battery for the back and body.

Not to mention that the DF bodies and lenses are a little more weatherproof than the H4 bodies and backs, making for a camera and back that puts up with tougher environments.

And that's assuming that P1 would take the chance of making H backs again, after how Hasselblad pulled the plug on them on the H3 and let them hanging with a bunch of H backs that would appeal only to H1/2/3 users.

If anything, the H4X simply means that people who have H backs can now upgrade to a new body with TF/TE and honestly, little else as far as I can tell. It may stop existing Hasselblad shooters with older bodies and P1 backs from trading in to a DF with LS lenses and a newer P1 M back, but that's about it...

[design_freak]

Question for DG:
I give my h2 - I can buy three body H4x? If I can buy only one H4x... What happens if someone steals my camera, or if such will be destroyed? Will I be able to buy another H4x?
HV 90x II viewfinder - any new version, if so how is it different?

[siebel]

Aren't you forgetting that Leaf is part of the Phase family now? Those guys were key partners with Sinar and Rollei in the development of the Hy6, a process that generated much knowledge and experience and the odd patent or two. I suspect they might just be incolved in the development of this new camera.
My experience of Phase, as a long-term customer of theirs is that they are very, very responsive to user demands, as far as the inputs to their R&D is concerned. I'd wager they are very aware of the limitations of the DF and also the limitations as well of the strengths of the Hassel.

[Dustbak]

At the risk of sounding like a newbie, how does this hurt the competition?

If I already have a P1 H back, I may consider a H4X body only if I need TrueFocus/TrueExposure. If I need 1/4000s shutter speeds with flash sync at 1/1600, I'd go with a DF body with the LS lenses. I haven't found anything really special about the Hasselblad backs (IAA?). With a H4X body and a P1 back, the convenience of a single battery for the back and body.

Not to mention that the DF bodies and lenses are a little more weatherproof than the H4 bodies and backs, making for a camera and back that puts up with tougher environments.

And that's assuming that P1 would take the chance of making H backs again, after how Hasselblad pulled the plug on them on the H3 and let them hanging with a bunch of H backs that would appeal only to H1/2/3 users.

If anything, the H4X simply means that people who have H backs can now upgrade to a new body with TF/TE and honestly, little else as far as I can tell. It may stop existing Hasselblad shooters with older bodies and P1 backs from trading in to a DF with LS lenses and a newer P1 M back, but that's about it...

Ever used a H body as well as a DF body? Ever used TF?

There is a reason people are really adamant on not using a DF body but keep clinging on to their H1/H2 bodies even if they are practically falling apart now from age and usage.

[eronald]

Ever used a H body as well as a DF body? Ever used TF?

There is a reason people are really adamant on not using a DF body but keep clinging on to their H1/H2 bodies even if they are practically falling apart now from age and usage.

The problem with this forum is that in addition to doctors and dentists and engineers there are actually some working photographers. Very annoying, they may speak truth to vendors about the emperor's new camera.

Edmund

[ghoonk]

Ever used a H body as well as a DF body? Ever used TF?

There is a reason people are really adamant on not using a DF body but keep clinging on to their H1/H2 bodies even if they are practically falling apart now from age and usage.

I have used a 645 AFD II before this, but not the H1/2/3. I practically shoot in TF all the time as I see no benefit in turning it off anyway. I did try the DF body for awhile, and that was the other choice - like I said, it was choosing between something that I felt was more comfortable (ergonomics) and convenient (single battery) to shoot with and I was quite sold on TF after trying out the H4D at a HUG event, over a system (DF/80LS/Aptus II 6) that offered faster shutter speeds (2.5 stops - 1/4000 vs 1/800), faster flash sync (1 stop - 1/1600 vs 1/800) and a lower base ISO (1 stop - 50 vs 100). The DF's AF was a huge jump over my 645 AFD II's and pretty much close to what the H4D was delivering.\

To add, when I was shooting with my 645AFD II and an Aptus 65 back, I never once found any dust getting between the body and sensor. With the Hasselblad, I find myself having to clean the sensor with every 2 outdoor shoots - in this respect, it feels like the Phamiya system is designed to put up with harsher environments. Maybe it was just bad luck, but that's how it turned out.

For some people, it's a matter of preference, nothing wrong with that. There are a number of H1/2 shooters out there with Leaf/P1 H-mount MFDBs and that having an option to upgrade to a newer body while retaining the back and lenses (cost-effective), so the H4X is a welcome addition to the Hasselblad family in that respect.

But to declare that this move was designed to hurt the competition seems a little strong, and I'm trying to figure out if I missed anything along that line of thought. While I was fairly comfortable shooting with the Phamiya system, the Hasselblad just felt better to use, not to mention that C1P does more for me than Phocus does (at the very least, it doesn't crash as much when I shoot tethered)

I don't have any specific loyalties to either side, and usually work with whatever feels more comfortable in my hands. And I'm neither a doctor nor an engineer.

[Dustbak]

I have used a 645 AFD II before this, but not the H1/2/3. I practically shoot in TF all the time...

Sorry you have never used a H but shoot TF all the time??? What do you mean by TF? Most of us here are referring to True Focus which is currently only available in the H4. I find TF really useful.

[design_freak]

The problem with this forum is that in addition to doctors and dentists and engineers there are actually some working photographers. Very annoying, they may speak truth to vendors about the emperor's new camera.

Edmund

+1000   
 

[ondebanks]

Sorry you have never used a H but shoot TF all the time??? What do you mean by TF? Most of us here are referring to True Focus which is currently only available in the H4. I find TF really useful.

Dude, how could you have possibly formed the impression that he "never used a H"? He says is 4 or 5 separate parts of his post that he tested and uses a H4D, and shoots tethered with Phocus (but it crashes), and has problems with dust in his H camera!

"I practically shoot in TF all the time..."
"...I was quite sold on TF after trying out the H4D..."
"With the Hasselblad, I find myself having to clean the sensor with every 2 outdoor shoots..."
"...the Hasselblad just felt better to use..."
"...does more for me than Phocus does (at the very least, it doesn't crash as much when I shoot tethered)"

Ray