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Author Topic: Question Pentax 645D and Mamiya/Phase One 645AFDI,II,III+ p40+/leaf II 8  (Read 11245 times)

LUWAfx

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Hello to everyone,

yes im back , as you know i have asked a question concerning digital options for my rz67pro and gx680III, as i see it now after getting some infoirmation, there is somehow trouble getting all to work digitally nicely .

SO i thought maybe i should sell my 2 old beauties and try a 645 MFDB System , im doing mainly studio,Portrait and landscape photography

it would be very nice if someone could enlighten me on these 2 645 Digital camera systems , whats possible and what not and if they are something for me.....

Would be great!

Thank you all!
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Doug Peterson

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Note the bias in my signature. There are several advantages of the Pentax, but someone else is better qualified to list them.

Advantages of the open platform Phase/Mamiya/Leaf/Schneider ecosystem:

One sensor, multiple bodies - You can purchase one digital back, and use it on several camera bodies. The DF body is a modern autofocus/autoexposure/autowinding bodies. It is great as a general purpose camera doing most everything pretty well. The Mamiya RZ - as you already know - is a lovely camera with waist level viewfinder, excellent/classic lens draw, and a certain feeling of tactile-ness that is hard to find in other cameras (very subjective obviously). A view camera, though not as fast to work with, is by far the most flexible option for still life and macro photography. A tech camera can't be beat for landscape/architecture/static-wide-angle photography. With a Pentax you have what you have with a Canon/Nikon - a "one size fits all" body which is pretty good at a lot of things but not specialized for anything.

In other words I wouldn't usually advocate an RZ Pro IID as the only camera a photographer owns, but the fact you can use a back on an RZ Pro IID where suitable and then take it off and put it on a DF body a few seconds later (when/where e.g. you need autofocus) and then later take it off and put it on a tech camera for landscape photography is very valuable to me.

Leaf Shutter (LS) Lenses - You can use leaf shutter lenses from Schneider on the DF body and from Mamiya on the RZ system. This enables fast flash sync with strobes**. Notably, the DF body has an optional V-Grip which includes a Profoto Air transmitter. Using this you can wirelessly sync with strobes at 1/1600th of a second.*

Tethered Support - Phase/Mamiya/Leaf are able to tether; currently Pentax cannot. Pentax may add tethering in the future but tethering is not (in my experience) a switch that you simply flip and everything is hunky dorey. Phase/Leaf have been doing tethering for more than 15 years; they have a very strongly proven track record of fast, reliable, simple, but powerful tethering. With FW400/FW800/USB3 (depending on model) they are fast, and built - frankly - from the ground up assuming that tethering was a core functionality. If you've not previously ever tethered I'd strongly encourage you to give it a try. The ability to review/adjust images during a shoot on a 30" display rather than scroll through images on a small camera LCD is night-and-day. The ability to categorize/organize/name images as you capture them is a boon to workflow. The ability to have an Art Director sign off on an image or pick favorites during the shoot can be great for client relationships (obviously it comes with it's own relationship/workflow requirements to avoid the AD's review of images becoming a bother - rather than an aid - to the shoot). The ability to quickly/easily back up to another drive mid-way through the shoot with a single click is a great fail-safe to prevent catastrophic loss (corrupt CF card, lost/damaged CF card etc).

Capture One Support - Both systems are supported by generic raw convertors like LightRoom, but Leaf/Mamiya/Phase also have their own very well regarded software (also compatible with Canon/Nikon/Leica etc) which allows for tethering, advanced image improvements like Keystoning, Skin-tone-targets, focus mask evaluation, overlays (for when you have to fit your image into a pre-deigned layout), local adjustments, and review/evaluation/approval on an iPad (for art directors / assistants). Just as importantly the engineers who make the back are in a room just a door down from the engineers who make the software and they collaborate heavily to ensure every bit of theoretical image quality possible from the sensor makes it to the final processed file; everything from multiple ICC profiles for different lighting scenarios to tweaking noise reduction/sharpening/detail-extraction based on the exact nature of the sensor and A/D convertor including proprietary implementations of techniques like dark-frames.

Wide Variety of Modern AF lenses - Mamiya/Phase/Schneider have a large number of designed-for-digital autofocus lenses. Several are some of the best lenses I've seen on any platform including the Schneider 55mm LS, Schneider 80mm LS, and Phase One 150mm D. There are a few weaker lenses (the 35mm for instance), but bottom line is you have an entire line of modern lenses. Pentax is starting to grow, slowly, a line of such lenses - having launched the camera with just one. Legacy lenses should not be discounted as they are a great way to fill in some gaps without breaking the bank - with either the Pentax or the Mamiya you'll have a good variety of options for older lenses which are directly compatible or compatible through an adapter.

Industry Support/ecosystem - Profoto, Mamiya, Schneider, Leaf, and Phase One have cooperated on various aspects of the Phase One / Mamiya / Leaf Ecosystem. This has led to a broad set of lenses, accessories, and workflow options. To highlight one: during a tethered shoot in Capture One you can control (with optional USB accessory) Profoto lights in your studio from within Capture One. I strongly feel that you'll see more of these cooperative efforts in the coming months and years. In the pro market Phase One has a very strong position, a lot of history, and some very strong relationships.

Shooting Speed/Depth - Phase/Mamiya/Leaf systems were built with portrait/fashion in mind. Maximum shooting speeds are no where close to the fastest dSLRs, but the consistency and buffer depth are crazy good. Once you've established a pace/rythem you'll be able to shoot that same speed more-or-less indefinitely (provided you are using a fast CF card of course). Last time I tried the Pentax it hit a buffer when shooting long sequences of images. Depending on your shooting style this may not matter at all - or it may be a big deal. You'll want to confirm exactly has fast and how deep you can shoot on the fastest card using the Pentax.

Dealer Support - Typically Phase/Mamiya/Leaf are sold by value added dealers who specialize in medium format equipment, know the gear inside and out, can provide evaluation rentals, real-world advice, and accessories. This is a very selfish statement because this is what I do full time; I've taken four tech support calls while authoring this post and each of them was brief because I was able to answer them off the top of my head. No call center, no wait times, no scripted answers, no relying on someone who was trained to defend the product at all costs - just fast, expert answers with an emphasis on the practical and possible. If/when you have a repair need a value added dealer will make it as quick and painless as possible. I'm NOT commenting on Pentax in this paragraph - just highlighting a strength of Phase/Mamiya/Leaf - you should do your own research as to who sells the 645D and how much of this applies to those sources.

Sensor Size - Several Phase/Mamiya/Leaf systems use the same sized sensor as the Pentax 645. Several of them however use a larger 1.1 crop or full-frame medium format sensor.

Warranty - Phase/Leaf/Mamiya have various warranty options, up to and including a 5-year warranty on Phase One IQ backs which includes a loaner back during any repairs. Turn around times are fast (especially for Mamiya and Leaf which are repaired in the US for US customers) and reliable and you get real communication (through your VA dealer) on what was found/repaired.

Modularity / Residual Value / Trade Ins - This one is a bit tricky since you can never know the future. However since a digital back is not tied to a specific body you can upgrade either the body or the back independently. You can also sell the back to someone who already has a body (or vice versa). And Phase/Mamiya/Leaf have a long legacy of providing advantageously-priced upgrades to their customers to upgrade their back down the road. Take the Canon analogy for instance. I'm fine with the sensor of the 5DII - I don't need the new higher ISOs or faster frame-rates of the D1x; however, I would LOVE the new AF and metering of the D1x Body (especially regarding it's probably impact on TTL flash in tough fast-moving situations). With Canon, and any other integrated solution I'm forced to buy the D1X sensor and body together.

*You can use legacy Pentax LS lenses on a Pentax 645D but unless I've missed a development the Leaf Shutter is disable so you do not get any of the benefits of an LS lens.
**Nikon/Canon have their a form of high-shutter-speed-sync with their small flash units. The power range of those systems is very limited when using higher-speed-sync, availability of professional lightshapers is quite limited, and the elegance is not really there (though to be clear they make for a great small-systems lighting setup for some applications).

Doug Peterson (e-mail Me)
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« Last Edit: October 24, 2011, 01:40:33 pm by dougpetersonci »
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theguywitha645d

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I think if you want a tethered camera, then Phase is your answer. The only way to tether the Pentax is by using a Wi-Fi card of some type. Some folks have had success with that.

If that is not on the top of your list, then the Pentax 645D is a great choice. Especially for landscape.

I think you need to approach this problem systemically. Can you get the lenses you need? I have a nice set of lenses for my Pentax and they are readily available. And there are some great lens choices with the Pentax. The camera is great to use--I also have a Phase back and the four button menu navigation and small monitor is a pain.

The Pentax is a modern camera. I cannot think of anything it cannot do and it has great long exposure and high ISO performance. Batteries are cheap and easy to get and last a long time. Many of the film lenses work well on the body which makes them good deals--a few lenses like the FA/A 45mm are a dog. (FA are autofocus and A are manual focus.) The menus and buttons are easy to use (the Phase menus are a disaster on my P25+). The camera is really easy to hold and mirror vibration is well dampened--much better than an RZ67. The viewfinder is bright and clear and I have no problems focusing on the ground glass manually. The built-in electronic level is a nice touch--it is displayed on the monitor and the horizontal level can be seen in the viewfinder. The dual card slots are great and I have mine setup like a RAID where one card is a copy of the other in case a card is corrupt. If you are working fast, the delay for displaying the image can seem long, but I am willing to wait the few seconds.

I have only used the Phase back on a technical camera and so I really can't comment on how the Mamiya bodies work. I am sure either camera is going to result in great images. It really is more a matter of the way you like to work and how available optics and accessories are in your location--I live in the middle of nowhere and so I am finding getting Pentax gear on the internet is simple.
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theguywitha645d

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BTW, tethering can be a pain with Phase, but once the connection is made, then it usually goes smoothly. Unless you are in a big center, then support is not really great. It is not like they are going to turn up at your studio. Also, I believe the Pentax LS lens has always worked with the 645D. You can also use high-speed sync with Pentax strobes.

You also need to use Capture One with Phase. It is OK, but I prefer Photoshop. I just use C1 as a RAW processor and finish the work in Photoshop. Pentax files will work beautifully in Photoshop, but they cannot be opened in C1.
« Last Edit: October 24, 2011, 02:04:48 pm by theguywitha645d »
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LUWAfx

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thanx both of you very much for the fast answers and help,

yeah its a little bit frustrating, if i would only do either landscape or portrait/fashion /studio the way to go would be much clearer for me, the problem is im doing both

one as client/point on photography and the other as relaxed nature photography  :)

maybe i ll need two cameras  ::)

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Doug Peterson

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yeah its a little bit frustrating, if i would only do either landscape or portrait/fashion /studio the way to go would be much clearer for me, the problem is im doing both

one as client/point on photography and the other as relaxed nature photography  :)

maybe i ll need two cameras  ::)


You really could use two cameras. Fortunately you only need one back :-).

Doug Peterson

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BTW, tethering can be a pain with Phase, but once the connection is made, then it usually goes smoothly. Unless you are in a big center, then support is not really great. It is not like they are going to turn up at your studio.

Actually we (as a dealer) do often "turn up" at our client's studios throughout the US, but of course it's more common to screen share, video chat, or call on the phone.

Also, I believe the Pentax LS lens has always worked with the 645D.

The LS lenses will mount, but unless their website, salesman (the one I spoke with), and printed spec sheets are all wrong the Leaf Shutter itself does not fire and the sync is still limited to the focal plane at 1/125th. Defeating the purpose of using an LS lens. Again, I'm open to being proven wrong (it's a system I know a lot about and have researched and shot but not a system I consider myself an authority on) if someone is definitively sure I am.

You can also use high-speed sync with Pentax strobes.

With Pentax AA powered flashes. Like using a Nikon with Nikon flashes. Very good to have as an option for some limited uses. But in general I was referring to the pro users who want to use a Leaf Shutter system to sync at any speed with pro strobe systems like Profoto, Broncolor, Elinchrom etc. It's hard to fill an 8 foot parabolic reflector with a small flash unit meant for photojournalism.  :D

You also need to use Capture One with Phase. It is OK, but I prefer Photoshop. I just use C1 as a RAW processor and finish the work in Photoshop. Pentax files will work beautifully in Photoshop, but they cannot be opened in C1.

Phase One and Leaf are also directly compatible with Photoshop. So no matter what you can use Photoshop if you choose.


Doug Peterson (e-mail Me)
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Doug Peterson

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The dual card slots are great and I have mine setup like a RAID where one card is a copy of the other in case a card is corrupt.

Yes, that is a really cool feature for the 645D. I was a bit saddened when Phase One released the IQ and it still only had one card slot.

tsjanik

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.......The LS lenses will mount, but unless their website, salesman (the one I spoke with), and printed spec sheets are all wrong the Leaf Shutter itself does not fire and the sync is still limited to the focal plane at 1/125th. Defeating the purpose of using an LS lens. Again, I'm open to being proven wrong (it's a system I know a lot about and have researched and shot but not a system I consider myself an authority on) if someone is definitively sure I am.


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Doug:

This is simply wrong information; the person you spoke with is quite mistaken.  The use of LS lenses on the 645D is covered on pg 27 of the US manual.  The lens is completely compatible with the 645D; in fact , the camera recognizes the lens and displays "LS" on the top lcd. The leaf shutter fires and can be can be used up 1/500 s, the speed limitation of the leaf shutter.

I rarely use flash, but attached is a test shot using the 135mm LS at 1/500 s.

Tom
« Last Edit: October 25, 2011, 08:03:59 am by tsjanik »
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Doug Peterson

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This is simply wrong information; the person you spoke with is quite mistaken.  The use of LS lenses on the 645D is covered on pg 27 of the US manual.  The lens is completely compatible with the 645D; in fact , the camera recognizes the lens and displays "LS" on the top lcd. The leaf shutter fires and can be can be used up 1/500 s, the speed limitation of the leaf shutter.

I rarely use flash, but attached is a test shot using the 135mm LS at 1/500 s.

Excellent! That actually makes me quite happy as it was just plain weird back when that wouldn't work.

I stand gladly, and fully, corrected! Thanks :-)

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Let me give you the Coles Notes:

- Pentax 645D is a way better camera (though you should shoot with both beforehand to truly get your own feel. I know no one who doesn't love the 645D as a camera, and many who get by just fine with the DF).

- If you need leaf-shutters or consistent studio tethering Phase is the only game in town.

- Optics are essentially equivalent in everything but price.

- The new Phase backs are brilliant.

- High ISO on the Pentax is excellent.

- Phase dealers (and Phase) are good. Pentax USA seems pretty useless, though they may have some good dealers.  Pentax Canada is really helpful and I have a fantastic dealer (The Camera Store in Calgary).

The rest is between you and your wallet.

Cheers,

- N.
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yaya

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I still consider the RZ as one of the best studio camera in the market and for people or tabletop I prefer its focusing mechanism and the waist level/ angle finders to pretty much anything else. Of course it doesn't have a sophisticated metering system or autofocus but otherwise it is a joy to use with some very good lenses

Which brings me to recommending the Aptus-II 8....works great on any old RZ with a rotating adapter and a single sync cable and if you buy it as a kit with a 645DF you enjoy both worlds with a solid studio rig and a more portable (and a little bit lighter) rig for your landscape work

You'll have at least one option for tethering software with excellent Live View for still life, you'll have the 1fps capability for portraits and you'll have the 3.5" touch screen for working on the 645DF. If you ever consider a technical camera for landscapes then you won't need to add anything as far as the back is concerned

Further down the line if you look at moving up to the latest and greatest you will have upgrade options and last but not least, cleaning the IR filter is a doddle compared to an SLR body...

Good luck with your decision making process!!!

Yair

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LUWAfx

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I still consider the RZ as one of the best studio camera in the market and for people or tabletop I prefer its focusing mechanism and the waist level/ angle finders to pretty much anything else. Of course it doesn't have a sophisticated metering system or autofocus but otherwise it is a joy to use with some very good lenses

Which brings me to recommending the Aptus-II 8....works great on any old RZ with a rotating adapter and a single sync cable and if you buy it as a kit with a 645DF you enjoy both worlds with a solid studio rig and a more portable (and a little bit lighter) rig for your landscape work

You'll have at least one option for tethering software with excellent Live View for still life, you'll have the 1fps capability for portraits and you'll have the 3.5" touch screen for working on the 645DF. If you ever consider a technical camera for landscapes then you won't need to add anything as far as the back is concerned

Further down the line if you look at moving up to the latest and greatest you will have upgrade options and last but not least, cleaning the IR filter is a doddle compared to an SLR body...

Good luck with your decision making process!!!

Yair






Thanks everyone for helpin me out and sharing knowledge!


Thank you very much yair, i must say thats one thing i wanted to hear, cause i really love my rz67pro,

do i need a rotating adapter or is the rz67 adapter a adapter that can be rotated?

what would be the price of a 645df aptus II8 combo including a adapter plat for the rz67pro?

so its like the RZ33 System build from scratch?

greetings
« Last Edit: October 25, 2011, 02:38:46 pm by LUWAfx »
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yaya

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Thanks everyone for helpin me out and sharing knowledge!


Thank you very much yair, i must say thats one thing i wanted to hear, cause i really love my rz67pro,

do i need a rotating adapter or is the rz67 adapter a adapter that can be rotated?

what would be the price of a 645df aptus II8 combo including a adapter plat for the rz67pro?

so its like the RZ33 System build from scratch?

greetings


We make adapters for the RZ in different flavours (for different mounts) but they all rotate and come with a marked focusing screen

Fo prices the best thing to do is to contact your local Leaf dealers as they will be able to quote you in your local currency and with all the relevant bits and pieces

The RZ33 is a bit different since the body is the RZIId and the adapter is made by Mamiya and includes electronic contacts so that you do not need a sync cable. The back is a DM33/ Aptus-II 7 which has the larger 33MP sensor rather than the 40MP one

Hope this helps

yair
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AlDoori

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do i need a rotating adapter or is the rz67 adapter a adapter that can be rotated

you attach the adapter to the digital back in 645 mount and click that unit on the RZ , just like a film back.
to rotate, set the switch to R and use the RZ revolving mechanism.
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LUWAfx

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that makes it clearer thanks  ;)
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LUWAfx

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ive got one thing that came to my mind that is unclear,

 so for example, ill buy a digital phase one back for my rz67 p30+ and its in V Mount, is it possible to mount this back to an 645 mamiya/phase camera, when i need a autofocus solution as backup?

cause i can mount this v-mount back tru an adapter onto my rz67pro
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AlDoori

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a digital back in hasselblad V mount will only fit to hasselblad V cameras without adapter and to larger cameras with adapter, not to other 645 cameras like contax, mamiya, hasselblad H.

you need a digital back with a native mamiya 645/phase one mount to attach it to a mamiya 645/phase one camera and an adapter mamiya 645>RZ.
this adapter is available from leaf, phase one and mamiya.

adapters for gx68o are available from kapturegroup.com

edit:
Quote
Standard Fuji GX 680 Rotating Adapter Plate
The Standard Fuji GX680 Digital Solution is designed to work with the Fuji GX680 I, II & III camera bodies.
The rotating adapter plate allows quick rotation of your digital back from portrait to landscape orientation.
The standard version is available in Hasselblad V, Mamiya 645AFD Phase One 645AF/DF or Contax 645 mount.

Sorry, Mamiya 645AFD and Phase One 645AF/DF
versions - Temporarily out of Stock
« Last Edit: October 26, 2011, 11:50:24 am by AlDoori »
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LUWAfx

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thank you very much!
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yaya

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The attached PDF should help you understand how a Leaf back works on the RZ
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