Topic: P45+ firmware update, What do you want? (Read 11114 times)

simplify · « **on:** October 07, 2011, 03:31:40 pm »

Hello,

I have been the proud owner of a P45+ for 4 years.

I am wondering if PhaseOne will ever release a new firmware update for this back.

My requested feature is for the power button to be disabled when the back is doing a dark frame subtraction. I do a lot of night photography and have lost more than a few 20+ minute exposures due to accidentally turning the camera off during a dark frame subtraction. I did it last night after a 13 minute exposure and wondered why they would allow the camera to turn off during the subtraction.

Do you guys have any firmware update suggestions?

JP

ondebanks · « **Reply #1 on:** October 07, 2011, 05:18:23 pm »

I don't even own one, but would consider buying one IF the firmware made dark subtraction an OPTION. Let us pick our own dark frames in software afterwards, from personal dark frame libraries built during less time-critical periods! That's the way we do it in Canon and Kodak land.

Ray

simplify · « **Reply #2 on:** October 07, 2011, 05:53:58 pm »

The best dark frame subtraction is made under the same conditions the shot is taken, however I guess the option wouldn't hurt.

simplify · « **Reply #3 on:** October 07, 2011, 05:54:27 pm »

I would like to be able to name the custom white balances.

Steve Hendrix · « **Reply #4 on:** October 07, 2011, 11:16:12 pm »

Quote from: simplify on October 07, 2011, 03:31:40 pm

Hello,

I have been the proud owner of a P45+ for 4 years.

I am wondering if PhaseOne will ever release a new firmware update for this back.

My requested feature is for the power button to be disabled when the back is doing a dark frame subtraction. I do a lot of night photography and have lost more than a few 20+ minute exposures due to accidentally turning the camera off during a dark frame subtraction. I did it last night after a 13 minute exposure and wondered why they would allow the camera to turn off during the subtraction.

Do you guys have any firmware update suggestions?

JP

Hi JP -

Excuse me for asking, but can you explain what you mean by turning it off while dark frame subtraction is occurring? Do you mean that during this period you accidentally turn the digital back off while it is counting down the black frame subtraction? I don't understand exactly what you mean.

Thank you,

Steve Hendrix

simplify · « **Reply #5 on:** October 08, 2011, 12:04:44 am »

Hi Steve,
What I am saying is that I can accidentally turn the back off during a dark frame subtraction and it cancels the subtraction and I either end up with a noisy image or the the image is lost. 2 nights ago I took a 13 minute exposure which could not be recreated and after a minute of dark frame subtraction I accidentally hit the powere button, losing the image. My nikon didn't let me turn the camera off during dark frame subtraction.

I love the p45+ but I think that my investment of 30,000+ dollars should include constant firmware updates. Phase is innovating on their new backs and I think they should continue to upgrade the p45+ which i think is the best highest resolution long exposure digital back on the market.

ondebanks · « **Reply #6 on:** October 08, 2011, 04:46:05 am »

Quote from: simplify on October 07, 2011, 05:53:58 pm

The best dark frame subtraction is made under the same conditions the shot is taken, however I guess the option wouldn't hurt.

You can exactly replicate those conditions (temperature) at another time.

Far from "not hurting", the option would be a major boon. Double the shooting time, double the variety of shots, or double the signal when stacking low S/N frames - take your pick.

Ray

Steve Hendrix · « **Reply #7 on:** October 08, 2011, 11:07:45 am »

Quote from: simplify on October 08, 2011, 12:04:44 am

Hi Steve,
What I am saying is that I can accidentally turn the back off during a dark frame subtraction and it cancels the subtraction and I either end up with a noisy image or the the image is lost. 2 nights ago I took a 13 minute exposure which could not be recreated and after a minute of dark frame subtraction I accidentally hit the powere button, losing the image. My nikon didn't let me turn the camera off during dark frame subtraction.

I love the p45+ but I think that my investment of 30,000+ dollars should include constant firmware updates. Phase is innovating on their new backs and I think they should continue to upgrade the p45+ which i think is the best highest resolution long exposure digital back on the market.

I understand what you were saying. What I was asking is how did you turn the digital back off?

In regard to firmware upgrades, there are always limitations to what can actually be accomplished, and as technology and capability improve, more is possible, but this means with new hardware. The IQ series is much more capable of specific firmware enhancements than the P Plus series due to the dramatically increased processing capability (and other improved hardware components). Speaking generally - not specifically about your request.

Steve Hendrix

Paul2660 · « **Reply #8 on:** October 08, 2011, 06:37:42 pm »

I was surprised by this also, you can easily hit the power button while moving the camera. I lost a few
frames last year by hitting the power button while putting the camera back in my pack. I agree that Canon and
Nikon's solution is better, i.e. the camera will not allow you to turn it off while in the middle of a dark frame, even
if you hit the switch. The switch on Canon and Nikon is a bit harder to move by accident being of a slider type instead
of a push button style by Phase One.

Paul Caldwell

Stefan.Steib · « **Reply #9 on:** October 08, 2011, 07:59:03 pm »

There is only one wish for a new firmware:
I want long exposures without an immediate darkframe ! It must be possible to store or simulate default darkframes of different sensitivities and lenghts in Capture One and have this deducted at home when it does not hurt.

The method exists described as : "Denoising photographs using dark frames optimized by quadratic programming" see here (english pdf download)
and is develloped by people from Stanford and Max Planck Institute so I guess they know what they are writing about :

http://www.kyb.tuebingen.mpg.de/fileadmin/user_upload/files/publications/ICCP09-GomezRodriguez_5491%5B0%5D.pdf

here is the Abstract from that document:

"Abstract
Photographs taken with long exposure or high ISO set- ting may contain substantial amounts of noise, drasti- cally reducing the Signal-To-Noise Ratio (SNR). This pa- per presents a novel optimization approach for denoising. It is based on a library of dark frames previously taken un- der varying conditions of temperature, ISO setting and ex- posure time, and a quality measure or prior for the class of images to denoise. The method automatically computes a synthetic dark frame that, when subtracted from an im-age, optimizes the quality measure. For specific choices of the quality measure, the denoising problem reduces to a quadratic programming (QP) problem that can be solved efficiently. We show experimentally that it is sufficient to consider a limited subsample of pixels when evaluating the quality measure in the optimization, in which case the com- plexity of the procedure does not depend on the size of the images but only on the number of dark frames.
We provide quantitative experimental results showing that our method automatically computes dark frames that are competitive with those taken under idealized conditions (controlled temperature, ISO setting, exposure time, and av- eraging of multiple exposures). We provide application examples in astronomical image denoising. The method is validated on two CMOS SLRs."

I don´t know if there is a substantial difference to the used P45+ Kodak CCD but I think this should work the same way.

So Please Phase - do it !

Greetings from Munich
Stefan Steib HCam.de

Steve Hendrix · « **Reply #10 on:** October 09, 2011, 12:20:29 am »

Quote from: Paul2660 on October 08, 2011, 06:37:42 pm

I was surprised by this also, you can easily hit the power button while moving the camera. I lost a few
frames last year by hitting the power button while putting the camera back in my pack. I agree that Canon and
Nikon's solution is better, i.e. the camera will not allow you to turn it off while in the middle of a dark frame, even
if you hit the switch. The switch on Canon and Nikon is a bit harder to move by accident being of a slider type instead
of a push button style by Phase One.

Paul Caldwell

I see - so you're saying that during the dark frame subtraction you might be moving to your next position, and so taking the DB and putting it into a bag while it does it's dark subtraction and the button inadvertently gets pressed. Ok, that makes sense now.

I can definitely see that as something that would be overlooked by developers. Even today at our NE Workshop, I asked several instructors and users how they would happen to accidentally turn off the power button while dark frame exposing and no one could imagine a scenario that they would do that. But it makes perfect sense.

Now that I've unraveled that for myself, I have to say I have no news of whether that would/could be remedied. I'm glad you mentioned it though JP and Paul, and we'll certainly bring it up to Phase One.

Steve Hendrix

ondebanks · « **Reply #11 on:** October 09, 2011, 06:14:07 am »

Quote from: Steve Hendrix on October 09, 2011, 12:20:29 am

I'm glad you mentioned it though JP and Paul, and we'll certainly bring it up to Phase One.

Steve,

Please can you promise us that you will be just as adamant in bringing up the other "wishes" to Phase One?
So far,
2 people want accidental turn-off protection [this may involve a hardware switch change?]
2 people want dark frame subtraction to be optional [this is pure firmware: it's a toggle to not do something; it's not adding a new feature]
1 person wants the ability to name custom white balances [also pure firmware]

I expect that all of these wishes are equally applicable to users of the other P+ backs, too.

Ray

Steve Hendrix · « **Reply #12 on:** October 09, 2011, 07:23:51 pm »

Quote from: ondebanks on October 09, 2011, 06:14:07 am

Steve,

Please can you promise us that you will be just as adamant in bringing up the other "wishes" to Phase One?
So far,
2 people want accidental turn-off protection [this may involve a hardware switch change?]
2 people want dark frame subtraction to be optional [this is pure firmware: it's a toggle to not do something; it's not adding a new feature]
1 person wants the ability to name custom white balances [also pure firmware]

I expect that all of these wishes are equally applicable to users of the other P+ backs, too.

Ray

Certainly. A significant portion of enhancements - be it Capture One or digital back functionality - have been adopted from our client's input by Phase One. Input is always valued and often implemented.

Steve Hendrix

Paul2660 · « **Reply #13 on:** October 10, 2011, 08:19:59 am »

Steve,

Exactly, I realized after a few dark nights, I was hitting the power button when putting the camera back into the bag. Basically
since I was only carrying one tripod, and knew that for the next 45 min, the P45+ would be tied up taking the dark frame, I moved
it back to the bag, just didn't feel the power switch as somehow I hit it and turned the camera off.

I have since made up a small piece of foam that keeps the camera up off the switch.

On one of Ray's other points, No dark frame subtraction or at least a option to turn it off, I agree that would be nice. But I have assumed that as long as the Chips are CCD no CMOS, that noise will continue to be a issue and need the Dark Frame. IMO Phase has come much closer with the P65+ and IQ backs with the sensor plus and high ISO noise. But going long seems to still be a problem.
I have also felt for a while that Phase had to make a decision, Very long exposures and no noise, or high ISO and low to no noise, and took the latter option as there was more need in the market for it.

I still strongly feel that for a back that is now over 4 years the P45+ is a good solution and it's ability to take a single exposure up to
one hour is also a powerful statement. Very clean images many times cleaner than a 5DmKII or 1DMKiv over the same time frame.

This may all be over soon, as I keep hearing of 36mp in a D7000 class camera or 54mp in Canon. Still can't see how they will get there with the density of the pixels, but I do welcome the price points!
Also why I don't think Phase is doing any new firmware development on the P45+.

Paul Caldwell
www.photosofarkansas.com

Paul Caldwell

Steve Hendrix · « **Reply #14 on:** October 10, 2011, 09:58:19 am »

Quote from: Paul2660 on October 10, 2011, 08:19:59 am

Steve,

Exactly, I realized after a few dark nights, I was hitting the power button when putting the camera back into the bag. Basically
since I was only carrying one tripod, and knew that for the next 45 min, the P45+ would be tied up taking the dark frame, I moved
it back to the bag, just didn't feel the power switch as somehow I hit it and turned the camera off.

I have since made up a small piece of foam that keeps the camera up off the switch.

On one of Ray's other points, No dark frame subtraction or at least a option to turn it off, I agree that would be nice. But I have assumed that as long as the Chips are CCD no CMOS, that noise will continue to be a issue and need the Dark Frame. IMO Phase has come much closer with the P65+ and IQ backs with the sensor plus and high ISO noise. But going long seems to still be a problem.
I have also felt for a while that Phase had to make a decision, Very long exposures and no noise, or high ISO and low to no noise, and took the latter option as there was more need in the market for it.

I still strongly feel that for a back that is now over 4 years the P45+ is a good solution and it's ability to take a single exposure up to
one hour is also a powerful statement. Very clean images many times cleaner than a 5DmKII or 1DMKiv over the same time frame.

This may all be over soon, as I keep hearing of 36mp in a D7000 class camera or 54mp in Canon. Still can't see how they will get there with the density of the pixels, but I do welcome the price points!
Also why I don't think Phase is doing any new firmware development on the P45+.

Paul Caldwell
www.photosofarkansas.com

Paul Caldwell

My sense is the decision to use Dalsa sensors rather than Kodak was made for a wide array of reasons. Since I wasn't in the room I'll speculate that they potentially could have included some or all of these elements -

*Faster native sensor readout
*Faster sustained capture rates
*Perhaps more cooperative partner
*More long term commitment from sensor manufacturer
*Image characteristics
*Better fit for Sensor Plus (just as Kodak-based is better fit for long exposure, as you noted, Paul)
*Time to market considerations
*Pricing

I'm sure there are even more things than listed above on the table when partnering with a chip fabricator.

There have been numerous firmware updates to the P45+ since it was launched, but at some point a practical limit emerges for numerous reasons. But since the long exposure is Unique Feature #1 for the P45+, I agree, having the no power off option seems like a very valid request.

Steve Hendrix

simplify · « **Reply #15 on:** December 17, 2011, 08:29:36 pm »

I thought I would refresh this topic a little.

I was thinking if I was Phase One I would offer a firmware update to the P+ series just for the sake to make the customers feel assured that 4 years after they spend $32,000 on a digital back Phase One has not forgotten about them.

Yes there are new backs with "retina" displays and whatnot, but the P45+ is still the best long exposure back.

Even if the firmware upgrade is minimal, it would be nice to know that Phase One still cares about us.

It may give me more confidence when I decide to upgrade to a new back. I am not going to upgrade if Phase One doesn't do everything they can do make me feel that my digital back's firmware will be updated and worked on to make the best camera possible.

My main firmware upgrade would be that the back can not be turned off during a dark frame subtraction. It is already designed not to turn off while storing an image - can't they extend this feature to dark frame subtraction. If you push the power button once during the dark frame it will bring up a warning that dark fram subtraction is happening - then if you push the power button a second time it will actually turn off the back, incase you are meaning to cancel the dark frame.

Please Phase One. Make me feel important. I gave you $32,000!!!

ctz · « **Reply #16 on:** December 18, 2011, 03:08:02 am »

Quote from: simplify on December 17, 2011, 08:29:36 pm

Even if the firmware upgrade is minimal, it would be nice to know that Phase One still cares about us.
.....
Please Phase One. Make me feel important. I gave you $32,000!!!

+1!

eronald · « **Reply #17 on:** December 18, 2011, 09:42:06 am »

I'd like a slower frame readout clocking, with better quality, even if I get a much slower back.

Edmund

Graham Welland · « **Reply #18 on:** December 18, 2011, 01:51:11 pm »

Another +1 on OPTIONAL dark frame subtraction. I'd like that on my P25+ for the exact same reason as the other posts here. One dark frame in a shoot is sufficient vs doubling the time for EVERY long exposure shot. It would be a great functional addition.

I haven't suffered the power-off but I can see how it would be easy to do when moving the camera etc or by accident.

Audii-Dudii · « **Reply #19 on:** December 18, 2011, 03:04:43 pm »

Quote from: Graham Welland on December 18, 2011, 01:51:11 pm

Another +1 on OPTIONAL dark frame subtraction. I'd like that on my P25+ for the exact same reason as the other posts here. One dark frame in a shoot is sufficient vs doubling the time for EVERY long exposure shot. It would be a great functional addition.

Ditto for many of us P30+ owners.

Quote

I haven't suffered the power-off but I can see how it would be easy to do when moving the camera etc or by accident.

I have accidentally powered-off the back during the dark-frame subtraction process two or three times over the past 18 months or so ... not often enough for it to constitute a "problem," but definitely often enough for it to be an annoyance. The ability to make it optional at times or to shoot only one dark frame during a session and subsequently apply it to several captures would be welcomed, even if both of these approaches result in a slight reduction in IQ versus the present mandatory approach.

Author Topic: P45+ firmware update, What do you want? (Read 11114 times)