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Author Topic: Harman by Hahnemuhle Gloss Baryta "Wave"  (Read 8192 times)

Mr. Capp

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Harman by Hahnemuhle Gloss Baryta "Wave"
« on: October 02, 2011, 07:45:39 am »

I was curious to try the new Gloss Baryta as I liked the older Harman a bit but wanted to see if the new stuff was an improvement. To me it seems that the paper
is thicker, and the surface is similar. The appearance does look a bit different less gloss differential, bronzing, and it looks like it sits in the paper even more. This surface
seems the closest to a real silver print than I've ever seen. I had pretty much settled on Canson's Baryta and EEF. and still love those papers, especially since they lay flat in the box.

My 8x10 box of Gloss Baryta is very wavy. Very much like traditional Darkroom paper right out of the box, but in the older case you had an easel to flatten the paper during exposure.
This paper seems like a mistake, how can a paper be put on the market that could not be fed through the printer correctly? My first print through got clipped at every pass at the edges,
and by the end got warped and horribly misprinted at the end of the print. The second was a little better but still the head hit the edges of the paper with every pass.

Now is this an issue everyone has had? Are improvements going to be made? What are some of the best solutions for now? Flattening before printing? Methods?
Are larger sizes flatter? If this paper laid flat it would be hands down the best thing out there. Why would a Manufacturer settle for so sloppy a product at this stage?
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rmyers

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Re: Harman by Hahnemuhle Gloss Baryta "Wave"
« Reply #1 on: October 02, 2011, 10:24:10 am »

I feed 17 x 25 sheets through my 3880 with no problem.  It is flat in the box.  After printing, however, it can develop waves that are visible after framing and glazing.
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Robcat

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Re: Harman by Hahnemuhle Gloss Baryta "Wave"
« Reply #2 on: October 02, 2011, 10:58:15 am »

I've been using it as my primary paper for a while and haven't had trouble with sheets (up to 17 x 25). These have always been properly flat. I would say you have a bad box and would try to exchange. I have had trouble with the rolls, as these have a significant curl that encourages head strikes.
Rob P

PS, I have had prints get wavy that were stored on edge. Would store your boxes flat.
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mshea

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Re: Harman by Hahnemuhle Gloss Baryta "Wave"
« Reply #3 on: October 04, 2011, 08:09:44 am »

I've had no problem with the 25 X 17 on my 3880, but the 8 X 10 definitely curls a lot. I have to carefully bend it by hand at the corners before feeding it through, or place it under weights for a couple of days.

Merrill
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pluton

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Re: Harman by Hahnemuhle Gloss Baryta "Wave"
« Reply #4 on: October 07, 2011, 12:34:14 am »

I just bought some 11x17 of this stuff from ATLEX.  It is curved/warped/wavy, but prints OK in the 3800. The 8.5x11 trims I made are more curved and cause small head strikes on the 3800.  Great looking paper, I like the surface way better than Epson EFP.  Having a dry mount press around would be great to flatten it.
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David Good

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Re: Harman by Hahnemuhle Gloss Baryta "Wave"
« Reply #5 on: October 07, 2011, 07:19:12 am »

I don't have the re-branded paper yet, but the first box of Harman I bought (letter size) was quite wavy, subsequent packs (up to 17x25) have been fine. Although the paper is sealed in in a plastic bag in the box, I can't help wondering if it is still affected by humidity during it's travels from manufacturer to retail outlet to end user.
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Mr. Capp

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Re: Harman by Hahnemuhle Gloss Baryta "Wave"
« Reply #6 on: October 12, 2011, 10:30:46 am »

Thanks for all the replies. I'm interested in this paper but does it have to be mounted for framing? I'm really hate mounting, prefer photo corners and a matt. Could you get by
by just flattening in a dry mount press like the old times?
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Mark F

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Re: Harman by Hahnemuhle Gloss Baryta "Wave"
« Reply #7 on: October 15, 2011, 09:06:38 am »

Can anyone tell me how this paper compares to the Canson Infinity Baryta? That is the paper that I have been using and it is beautiful but comes in 17 x 22 and not 17 x 25 sheets. The Canson paper by the way, lies perfectly flat without waves or curves.
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Mark

Mr. Capp

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Re: Harman by Hahnemuhle Gloss Baryta "Wave"
« Reply #8 on: July 27, 2012, 12:35:47 pm »

Ok, so I started printing large sheets(17x22) of the Gloss Baryta and I'm running into what I'd fear would happen, scratches. I knew this paper would be finicky
but I just wanted to see what others may have done to eliminate the pizza wheel scratches. They aren't head strikes, classic ink hitting the paper and waving up.
classic, microfine long scratch running down the middle of the print, and another partial on the left side.
Usually I had this problem in the winter printing on epson exhibition fiber but now in the humid summer, which it cannot get any more humid(58%!).
printing on a 3800
unchecked high speed,
2880(I was getting microbanding, 2880 stopped this)
paper thickness 5,
platen wider.
any suggestions? I love this paper surface more than anything so any help would be so appreciated.
-Michael
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AaronPhotog

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Re: Harman by Hahnemuhle Gloss Baryta "Wave"
« Reply #9 on: July 29, 2012, 03:15:32 am »

Mr. Capp,
Early versions of this paper were especially prone to the long scratches in the direction of paper movement on my Epson 3800.  A trick helped eliminate that.  Get a small spray bottle that sprays a fine mist.  Put the paper face down on a sheet of foam core or something smooth.  First, bend the paper carefully from side to side until each edge almost touches the opposite edge, then do the same end to end, and then pull up the edges while pushing down gently against the edge curl.  Be careful not to crinkle the paper.  Just keep doing that until the paper is nearly flat.  Then, spray the back with a light spray of water.  Use a soft paper towel to smooth out the water so there's a slight sheen over the entire back.  Be careful not to get water onto the front.

The sheet will bend upwards in the middle three-quarter areas (like a broad "M") as the long edges bend down, because the back is stretching, and the front is not.  Let it dry until the curl is only enough to lift the sheet at the edges about 1/4" or less.  Load it into the sheet feeder, hold it down so it is against the back of the slot and hit the advance button (down facing arrow).  The printer will grab the paper and feed it in to the start position.  If you did everything right, it will signal that it is ready to print.  Go make your final adjustments and hit print when ready.

Unless you live in a very dry climate, the back of the paper still holds just enough moisture to counteract the stretching of the surface as the ink hits it.  It will not buckle as much as if it went in totally dry.  This solved my scratch problems entirely with the 17"x25" paper.  Typically, here, the humidity is around 55% rh.  With the newer paper, wetting the back has not been necessary any more.  My settings for gap are 5 - wide, but I don't know if that makes much of a difference.

Lately, as indicated, the paper seems to be thicker, and with a better texture.  It seems less prone to scratches, but it needs to dry for a at least a day before doing a lot of handling.  Then, it's pretty much bullet-proof.   

Aloha,  Aaron
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Aaron Dygart,
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Mr. Capp

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Re: Harman by Hahnemuhle Gloss Baryta "Wave"
« Reply #10 on: July 29, 2012, 09:01:53 am »

aaron,
So you find yourself not even having to wet the back with the newer paper? Do you still use the sheet feeder? I'll do some more playing around and try this method again.

another thing, how do you normally mount this paper? It lays pretty flat, my 17x22 sheets seem to be pretty stable with just photo corners in the frame with a matt, I'm not so sure the slightly larger 17x25 sheets wouldn't start to show buckling. Dry mounting seems like a pretty good option.
best,
Michael
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AaronPhotog

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Re: Harman by Hahnemuhle Gloss Baryta "Wave"
« Reply #11 on: July 29, 2012, 01:39:03 pm »

Mr. Capp,
The newer paper just needs to be as flat as possible when it goes in the machine, so I don't wet the back, and yes, I use the sheet feeder.  First, if you look at the sheet after you have flattened it, one side still has a little bit of a curl compared to the other.  At least that's my experience.  Turn the paper so that side is to the left as you face the machine.  That means when the print head goes over the edge, it's the flattest of the two edges, so you won't likely get head strikes.  As you look down into the slot, make sure the paper is at the bottom and flat as possible all the way across when it feeds.  You will have to get it positioned as best you can, reach over and hit the feed button once, and get your fingers back in there behind the plastic curved guides and push downwards and back with the back of your fingernails.  The machine will make some noise, and then, suddenly, it will grab the paper.  It will scare you.  Just don't get your fingers too far down in there.  You'll reflexively pull them out as soon as it grabs the paper.

Look at the edges and see if they look straight and approximately centered compared to the edges of the guides, which have now retracted away from the paper edges.  It's never perfectly centered, but it should look perfectly straight.  The machine will do an up and down motion with the paper when it's in the print position, so it's kind of testing whether it is straight, too.  Then it will stop and the display will say "ready."  The centering on mine seems to leave a little more gap on the left than the right, so I dial in a little more space on the right of the image to get the image accurately centered on the paper.  You'll have to experiment to determine how much extra space to give it.

As far as mounting is concerned, I've been using corners with the 17"x25" and getting good results, but I'm about to experiment with some new dry mount tissue that is made for low temperature mounting of inkjet images.

Aloha, Aaron
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Aaron Dygart,
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John Caldwell

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Re: Harman by Hahnemuhle Gloss Baryta "Wave"
« Reply #12 on: July 29, 2012, 09:31:49 pm »

Thanks for all the replies. I'm interested in this paper but does it have to be mounted for framing? I'm really hate mounting, prefer photo corners and a matt. Could you get by
by just flattening in a dry mount press like the old times?

I hate the appearance of this paper unless its mounted. It oil cans all over the place. If it doesn't the day it's framed, it will in 3 months.

What's wrong with mounting the print? I regard photo corners as Flat Earth Society technique, but others disagree of course.

John Caldwell
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AaronPhotog

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Re: Harman by Hahnemuhle Gloss Baryta "Wave"
« Reply #13 on: July 29, 2012, 11:28:39 pm »

John,
I've had good luck, as I say, but this paper does need to expand and contract in the mounting corners, or, yes, it will be wavy sometimes.  That's why I'm going to do some experimenting to see if it will dry mount acceptably, and not loosen and bubble.

The people who object to dry-mounting are the conservators, who want to be able to remove the prints from their backings if the backings turn out to be bad in the future.  I've seen it happen with buffered rag board in the wrong climactic conditions.  The buffering agent can be food for the small bugs that like to live in "sealed" rice jars.  They like gelatin, as on silver prints, even more.  Enough exposure to pollutants and the boards can host foxing before the print does.  So, the conservators have a point.  But properly mounted and stored dry-mounted silver prints can last a very long time on good acid-free, lignan-free board in the right conditions.  And they stay nice and flat.  We'll see, eventually, how the inkjet papers perform.  See the technical section of my website referenced below for a brief article on photographic conservation.

With a paper that's made of layers having differential coefficients of expansion, like most of the glossy baryta papers today, there still may be situations where it will bubble and pop loose.  We'll see.

Aloha,  Aaron
www.dygartphotography.com  
« Last Edit: July 29, 2012, 11:37:36 pm by AaronPhotog »
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Aaron Dygart,
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John Caldwell

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Re: Harman by Hahnemuhle Gloss Baryta "Wave"
« Reply #14 on: July 30, 2012, 06:32:28 am »

All good points, Aaron, and I learned something by reading your post. Possibly this discussion recalls the broader dialog regarding digital art, inkjet prints, and whether a given print is replaceable at the end of life of a non-archival display technique.

John Caldwell
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