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Author Topic: Shadow noise & newer APS-C sensors  (Read 2013 times)

Greg D

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Shadow noise & newer APS-C sensors
« on: September 20, 2011, 03:59:07 pm »

I've been shooting for the last few years with Canon 450d & 50d and in no hurry to upgrade, as I've thought that no upgrade other than to full frame (out of my budget) would produce any meaningful improvement.  (I shoot mostly landscape, usually on tripod, low ISOs.)  But the new(ish) Sony 16mp sensor in the Nikon D7000 and others clearly does have better noise characteristics than my current gear - at least lower noise at higher ISO.  I'm wondering:  Would this also translate into less shadow noise at lower ISOs (less noise generated when lightening shadows in post-process) or not?  And a related curiosity:  On the dxomark site, the Nikon D7000 gets much better scores than the Sony cameras that (presumably) use the same sensor.  What's up with that?
Any enlightenment appreciated.
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BernardLanguillier

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Re: Shadow noise & newer APS-C sensors
« Reply #1 on: September 20, 2011, 06:38:13 pm »

Yes, you will get lower shadow noise (also known as dynamic range) with both the Sony and Nikon, even less with the Nikon thanks to the way Nikon has been able to process signal information.

The interesting thing is that Sony semi-conductor and Sony Imaging are two different companies. Nikon has been a much larger customer of Sony semi-conducator than Sony imaging is. Fun isn't it? :-)

The gap  in terms of shadow noise was already very large between the D3x and A900 (even if it was never acknowledged by some folks). To give you an idea, that gap was larger than the gap seen between MFDB and the best DSLRs. It seems Nikon did it again with the D7000. Pentax also did a very good job using that same sensor by the way.

I would think that Sony Imaging finally got it right with the A77 sensor, but we'll have to wait for actual DR measurements to find out.

Cheers,
Bernard

Ray

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Re: Shadow noise & newer APS-C sensors
« Reply #2 on: September 20, 2011, 07:57:50 pm »

I've been shooting for the last few years with Canon 450d & 50d and in no hurry to upgrade.....................

Are you aware that the true base ISO of the Canon 50D is actually ISO 200 and that no image-quality purpose is served using ISO 100, apart from additional blur due to the slower shutter speed?

I mention it because this fact is not made clear in the reviews I've read. It wasn't until I looked at DXOMark graphs for this camera that it became apparent. Subsequent tests I've done confirm that image quality is approximately the same at both ISO 100 and 200.

This fact makes the Canon 50D a more useful camera for me, as a walk-around camera. However, if you use a tripod most of the time, I can appreciate it wouldn't be much advantage. What you are after is increased dynamice range for landscapes, and a camera like the Nikon D7000 will deliver that in spades.
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Greg D

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Re: Shadow noise & newer APS-C sensors
« Reply #3 on: September 20, 2011, 10:36:00 pm »

Are you aware that the true base ISO of the Canon 50D is actually ISO 200 and that no image-quality purpose is served using ISO 100, apart from additional blur due to the slower shutter speed?

I am aware of that, and usually set 200 as my "default" ISO for walkaround shooting.  Never noticed any difference.  It does appear to make a difference on my 450d however.
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ErikKaffehr

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Re: Shadow noise & newer APS-C sensors
« Reply #4 on: September 20, 2011, 11:32:39 pm »

Hi,

My guess is that the Alpha 900 was limited by it's 12 bit processing pipe line. The impression I have is that there is a balance between readout times and noise. Very clearly, the Nikon D3X was much better than anything else regarding DR, and probably also on resolution, due to thinner OLP filter, and possible better lenses.

Regarding noise, there seem to be little to do about shot noise. It's proportional to the square root the photons captured. So shot noise is essentially limited by full well capacity, the amount of electrons each pixel can hold. This quantity seems to go down with pixel size. The noise floor will also be limited by readout noise, coming from electronics. Great progress have been made in reducing readout noise with the Sony sensors. Nikon and Pentax seem to make better use of the sensor than Sony themselves.

A bigger sensor will collect more photons, and will therefore have an advantage.

Best regards
Erik

Yes, you will get lower shadow noise (also known as dynamic range) with both the Sony and Nikon, even less with the Nikon thanks to the way Nikon has been able to process signal information.

The interesting thing is that Sony semi-conductor and Sony Imaging are two different companies. Nikon has been a much larger customer of Sony semi-conducator than Sony imaging is. Fun isn't it? :-)

The gap  in terms of shadow noise was already very large between the D3x and A900 (even if it was never acknowledged by some folks). To give you an idea, that gap was larger than the gap seen between MFDB and the best DSLRs. It seems Nikon did it again with the D7000. Pentax also did a very good job using that same sensor by the way.

I would think that Sony Imaging finally got it right with the A77 sensor, but we'll have to wait for actual DR measurements to find out.

Cheers,
Bernard

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Erik Kaffehr
 

KevinA

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Re: Shadow noise & newer APS-C sensors
« Reply #5 on: September 22, 2011, 12:04:21 pm »

I've been shooting for the last few years with Canon 450d & 50d and in no hurry to upgrade, as I've thought that no upgrade other than to full frame (out of my budget) would produce any meaningful improvement.  (I shoot mostly landscape, usually on tripod, low ISOs.)  But the new(ish) Sony 16mp sensor in the Nikon D7000 and others clearly does have better noise characteristics than my current gear - at least lower noise at higher ISO.  I'm wondering:  Would this also translate into less shadow noise at lower ISOs (less noise generated when lightening shadows in post-process) or not?  And a related curiosity:  On the dxomark site, the Nikon D7000 gets much better scores than the Sony cameras that (presumably) use the same sensor.  What's up with that?
Any enlightenment appreciated.
I have a 550D it's backup backup camera to my 1DsmkIII's. I use it when my 200mm needs to think it's something bigger. I can spot the 550d images a mile of. The tonal colour range is very flat compared to the bigger sensor. I know someone that says the same about a 7D as  well. There just is not as much in the file to play with.

Kevin.
www.treewithoutabird.com
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