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Author Topic: IPF 6100 Opinions  (Read 4452 times)

ippolitois

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IPF 6100 Opinions
« on: September 16, 2011, 10:34:29 pm »

I have the opportunity to get a used Canon ipf6100 for a good deal. I think it might be overkill for what I currently use my printer for. I normally print 8x10's  to 16x20's. Haven't had the need for anything larger. Can the 6100 handle cut sheets for these sizes, especially 8.5x11 for 8x10 prints?  Will I experience the nauseating clogging and endless head cleaning I've experienced with my Epson?

Any help or further insights with this printer would be greatly appreciated.

Paul
« Last Edit: September 16, 2011, 10:37:34 pm by ippolitois »
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neile

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Re: IPF 6100 Opinions
« Reply #1 on: September 16, 2011, 11:48:06 pm »

It should handle those sizes just fine. And no clogging issues. Canons don't clog. Epsons do :D

Neil
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enduser

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Re: IPF 6100 Opinions
« Reply #2 on: September 17, 2011, 03:37:31 am »

I'm very happy to be corrected but, my understanding with the Canon is that it starts out with a head that has more openings than are needed.  As time passes, some clog, or misfire for various reasons.  The clever part is that by using re-mapping routines, the heads use a redundancy scheme whereby other nozzles are gradually pressed into action, covering for the inactive ones.

After a long time the machine runs out of new nozzles to use as more and more cease to function.  At that point the printer asks for a new head.  The whole thing is that there's no miracle cure for clogging, just clever ways round it that require no extensive maintenance by the user.  All the re-mapping happens without you even noticing.

The one down side is the price of a new head at $500+. One head covers six colors, so that's $83 per color. Design Jets are about $30 a color so that's not so good in Canon's case.
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makaphoto

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Re: IPF 6100 Opinions
« Reply #3 on: September 17, 2011, 11:31:32 am »

My Canon IPF 6100 Left Print Head clogged after 2 years of what I would call little to medium usage. Right Print Head also showed clogging in the Test Print Pattern about 2 months ago. I didn't get a message to replace it though (as I did with the left one). Then I went on holidays for 4 weeks and afterwards everything was alright again. I don't trust it though and have a spare one ready.

Martin
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Wayne Fox

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Re: IPF 6100 Opinions
« Reply #4 on: September 17, 2011, 06:15:36 pm »

I have the opportunity to get a used Canon ipf6100 for a good deal. I think it might be overkill for what I currently use my printer for. I normally print 8x10's  to 16x20's. Haven't had the need for anything larger. Can the 6100 handle cut sheets for these sizes, especially 8.5x11 for 8x10 prints?  Will I experience the nauseating clogging and endless head cleaning I've experienced with my Epson?

Any help or further insights with this printer would be greatly appreciated.

Paul
Well, if it's used you may be taking a pretty big chance, because depending on how much it has been used, and if it's been sitting idle, you may have to replace either or both print heads shortly, because the head will have a substantial number of the spare nozzles permanently clogged.  So I would walk away and look at a new one unless the price is cheap enough you can justify the hundreds of dollars to replace the heads.
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Pete Berry

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Re: IPF 6100 Opinions
« Reply #5 on: September 17, 2011, 09:52:45 pm »

Well, if it's used you may be taking a pretty big chance, because depending on how much it has been used, and if it's been sitting idle, you may have to replace either or both print heads shortly, because the head will have a substantial number of the spare nozzles permanently clogged.  So I would walk away and look at a new one unless the price is cheap enough you can justify the hundreds of dollars to replace the heads.

Absolutely. Unless heads are confirmed new and nozzle test OK, without error messsages, the worth of the printer is pretty much the discounted value of the remaining ink. A pair of new PF-03 heads runs $1100-1200, and replacing the heads consumes about $150-200 in ink.

Pete
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Ernst Dinkla

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Re: IPF 6100 Opinions
« Reply #6 on: September 18, 2011, 11:43:46 am »

and replacing the heads consumes about $150-200 in ink.

Pete

Is it really that much in ink that gets lost?

The replacement of a Z3100 Designjet head does not take that much ink and I wonder why it should be like 250 ML of inks for a Canon iPF model.

The other message that mentions a Designjet head price at $30.- probably is about another head than a Z3100 head. Twice that price is more likely.

I wonder what the price of a used iPF5100 should be, the price new here is about 1700 Euro, two headswill be around 800-900 Euro. There is not that much ink in a new iPF5100. It is more a lottery ticket than anything else if you lay down 500 Euro for a used one.

met vriendelijke groeten, Ernst

New: Spectral plots of +250 inkjet papers:

http://www.pigment-print.com/spectralplots/spectrumviz_1.htm




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Pete Berry

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Re: IPF 6100 Opinions
« Reply #7 on: September 18, 2011, 12:57:33 pm »

Is it really that much in ink that gets lost?

The replacement of a Z3100 Designjet head does not take that much ink and I wonder why it should be like 250 ML of inks for a Canon iPF model.

The other message that mentions a Designjet head price at $30.- probably is about another head than a Z3100 head. Twice that price is more likely.

I wonder what the price of a used iPF5100 should be, the price new here is about 1700 Euro, two headswill be around 800-900 Euro. There is not that much ink in a new iPF5100. It is more a lottery ticket than anything else if you lay down 500 Euro for a used one.

met vriendelijke groeten, Ernst

When I replaced two heads on my iPF5000 under warranty five years ago, the process involved first purging the heads and lines with a considerable amount of ink dumped, replacing the heads, then re-filling and cleaning. With a new unit, just installing the heads takes about 20ml X 12 colors, leaving about 70ml in each starter cart.

My current heads are showing problems not yet evident on prints, but the end will come soon, after five years of regular use. So I'm taking advantage of a current factory $250 rebate to order a new 5100 from Color HQ for a final cost of $1450 after rebate. The retail cost of the heads is at least $1000, and the value of the 90ml starter carts about $600. I'll be able to use all my current inks as I had converted to the improved 5100 inks in '06.

As an aside, the only nozzle cleanings I have run in five years were the two I did after the first head/nozzle error messages appeared last month. Way back, with the early head failures, a tech at Canon told me that if the nozzle defects didn't clear after two standard cleanings, more, including the deep cleaning cycle which I had run a couple of times, were just a waste of ink. Support was impeccable, requiring only a single call, and a new head delivered overnight in each case.

Pete







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ippolitois

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Re: IPF 6100 Opinions
« Reply #8 on: September 19, 2011, 11:29:42 am »

Thanks to everyone who replied. I have not made up my mind yet on the deal, but this how I'm thinking now. I can have trouble free printing until the head dies and then spend $1000 and replace the head and have another 2-3 years of clog free printing. Or, I can continue with this Epson and drain $1000 of ink in the waste tank, loose countless hours of downtime and have less hair. When this printer is bang on, it's terrific, but the clogging is too much to bear. The costs for the ink for either the Canon or Epson are equal, except  it appears that most of the Canon ink is applied to paper and the Epson ink into my waste tank.

As for image quality, I, or my customers will ever notice the minute detail difference that may or may not exist between these printers. For the purest, I guess it does matter, but for me it's not a concern for me. I just want to flip the switch and start printing. BTW, I'm on my third day of trying to unclog this beast.

Thanks again.

Paul
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Pete Berry

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Re: IPF 6100 Opinions
« Reply #9 on: September 19, 2011, 12:43:27 pm »

Paul, I just checked the PF-03 printhead prices, and the lowest was $490 @ 17th St Photo, so the price has come down from the previous $550-650 (which continues with many sellers). Two are required, six colors each, and they can be replaced individually.

The one advantage the 5000/5100 has over the 6100 is that it has a paper cassette that holds 8.5x11, 13x19, or 17x22. I have a second cassette and keep the smaller two sizes loaded, the roll for larger. Although it states the cassette won't handle heavier art-type papers, 315gsm Innova cotton matte loads fine in my 5000.

Good luck,  Pete
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ippolitois

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Re: IPF 6100 Opinions
« Reply #10 on: September 19, 2011, 04:03:48 pm »

Hi Pete,

Thanks for the info. To be sure, hte 6100 doesn't have a cassette for cut sheets? I thought it did. This might change things then as I primarily use cut sheet paper when I print. It's not to say that I can't adjust to rolls but that's not what I was hoping for. As for the print heads and other consumables, they are all the same price in the end. It just appears that the Canon have a lot less headaches thhan the Epsons.

Thanks in advance.

Paul
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Pete Berry

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Re: IPF 6100 Opinions
« Reply #11 on: September 19, 2011, 10:47:14 pm »

Hi Pete,

Thanks for the info. To be sure, hte 6100 doesn't have a cassette for cut sheets? I thought it did. This might change things then as I primarily use cut sheet paper when I print. It's not to say that I can't adjust to rolls but that's not what I was hoping for. As for the print heads and other consumables, they are all the same price in the end. It just appears that the Canon have a lot less headaches thhan the Epsons.

Thanks in advance.

Paul

Nope, no cassette in the 6100 and larger iPF's. If it did I'd have ordered it instead of the 5100. I mentioned that because your original post suggested your needs are much like mine. Also the 5100 allows 3mm borders all around for single sheets of standard or custom lengths fed through the top for most media types. I believe that in the 6100 and larger there's an approx. 7/8" minimum margin on the trailing edge for cut sheets, but I could be wrong here.

The printers do self-maintenance with periodic cleaning cycles that seem to use little ink. You can say goodby to nozzle checks before printing and clog-cleaning in the Canon iPF's - mine went five years of pretty regular usage before head/nozzle error messages. Canon technology is different than Epson's, using thermal heads, and when nozzles fail it's generally due to irreversible nozzle electrical burnout, not an ink "clog". That's my simplistic understanding, at least.

Pete
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Wayne Fox

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Re: IPF 6100 Opinions
« Reply #12 on: September 20, 2011, 01:58:19 am »

Thanks to everyone who replied. I have not made up my mind yet on the deal, but this how I'm thinking now. I can have trouble free printing until the head dies and then spend $1000 and replace the head and have another 2-3 years of clog free printing.
Sounds logical, but if the printer has been sitting, or if the printer is old and is heavily used that very well could only be a few weeks.  You might get lucky, but this is a pretty old printer, most likely with most of the spare nozzles clogged.

I'll add one other thing.  Although the 6100 is a decent printer, the 6300 has very improved blacks and screening - much better output and your blacks won't turn milky on some papers after a year or so.  For that reason is worth considering ... a much better investment.

good luck with whatever you decide.
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enduser

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Re: IPF 6100 Opinions
« Reply #13 on: September 20, 2011, 03:02:42 am »

 ...."your blacks won't turn milky on some papers ..."   Hmmm! Haven't come across this problem being mentioned before.  Any chance of a bit more detail? Thanks.
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Ernst Dinkla

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Re: IPF 6100 Opinions
« Reply #14 on: September 20, 2011, 03:34:43 am »

Sounds logical, but if the printer has been sitting, or if the printer is old and is heavily used that very well could only be a few weeks.  You might get lucky, but this is a pretty old printer, most likely with most of the spare nozzles clogged.

I'll add one other thing.  Although the 6100 is a decent printer, the 6300 has very improved blacks and screening - much better output and your blacks won't turn milky on some papers after a year or so.  For that reason is worth considering ... a much better investment.

good luck with whatever you decide.

It is very difficult to estimate what quality is left in a secondhand printer. The iPF5100 is sold since mid 2007 and is still in the catalog. On the other hand the Canons and even more the HPs allow the exchange of heads by the user. With HPs that is quite cheap but they have no up to date 17" sheet model. It is a pity that there is no iPF5300 yet. For speed and roll printing both the 6300 and 8300 are the machines to get but an up to date Canon sheet printer 17" wide would be nice. The use of 8300 inks in iPF5100 heads is not possible Canon says due to more polymer in the 8300 ink. The 17" market must be small in a sense and filled in from the bottom by the 3800, 3880.  Epson reduced the price of the 4900 even here in Europe, HP did not make a new model after the Designjet 90 and an iPF5100 replacement is not yet announced.


met vriendelijke groeten, Ernst

Try: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Wide_Inkjet_Printers/
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ippolitois

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Re: IPF 6100 Opinions
« Reply #15 on: September 20, 2011, 01:00:19 pm »

What I really need is  a sheet feeding printer. I thought that the 6100 had a cassette until Pete Berry enlightened me that their is no sheet feeder for the 6100 and sadly he was right. My ideal print is the 5100 and I guess I'm going to have to either wait for a 5300 or look for a 5100. The seller is in no hurry to let the package go, but you never know. I've lost other opportunities when no one is in a hurry. I'm hoping that Canon will issue a round of rebates for the 5100 and I'll jump on it.

Even though my 4000 has new heads, I can't seem to unclog two single stops in the pattern. I'm going to try the dreaded super sonic head cleaning routine to see it is can dislodge the two spots.

Thanks for all the help.

Paul
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Pete Berry

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Re: IPF 6100 Opinions
« Reply #16 on: September 20, 2011, 03:25:19 pm »

What I really need is  a sheet feeding printer. I thought that the 6100 had a cassette until Pete Berry enlightened me that their is no sheet feeder for the 6100 and sadly he was right. My ideal print is the 5100 and I guess I'm going to have to either wait for a 5300 or look for a 5100. The seller is in no hurry to let the package go, but you never know. I've lost other opportunities when no one is in a hurry. I'm hoping that Canon will issue a round of rebates for the 5100 and I'll jump on it.

Even though my 4000 has new heads, I can't seem to unclog two single stops in the pattern. I'm going to try the dreaded super sonic head cleaning routine to see it is can dislodge the two spots.

Thanks for all the help.

Paul

Paul, Canon is currrently offering a $250 mail-in rebate on the 5100. With the discounted price of $1700 at Color HQ and IT Supplies you've got a new, warranteed printer for $1450 with full pro features including mar-free vacuum hold-down rather than "pizza wheels" and full-time blacks - which in five years with 5100 inks on a variety of matte and photo papers I've seen no degredation.

Pete
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ippolitois

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Re: IPF 6100 Opinions
« Reply #17 on: September 20, 2011, 03:52:02 pm »

Hi Pete,

I know about the printer rebates and the price of a new one, but unfortunately, it's only available in the US and I'm in Canada. Currently, there are no rebate offers for the 5100 in Canada yet. I'm keeping my eye on it in case they do offer the same price.

Thanks for the heads up.

Paul
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Wayne Fox

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Re: IPF 6100 Opinions
« Reply #18 on: September 20, 2011, 06:45:06 pm »

I have some prints on various papers that after displaying for a year or two the blacks have a "milky" look.  Definitely not the look when they were printed. It's almost like the blacks have lost some of the "gloss".  I don't recall what paper was used (maybe was Kodak Professional maybe Epson Luster).  I don't think it's a general problem with the printer/ink, more due to the combination so some papers are probably fine (I've never used Canon papers). After talking to David Sparer at Canon when the 6300 was introduced about the changes, they aren't insignificant and definitely yield higher quality output, one of them was to address issues with GD and the black inks.  The 6300 output is terrific.

If I wanted a sheet feed printer right now, there is no way I'd buy a 5100 over an Epson 3880 ... the one printer that Epson has made that rarely (if ever) clogs.  If you need roll paper to me the 5100 wouldn't be very tempting, i'd either figure out a way to make the 6300 work, opt for a 4890/4900 (my 4900 has had one clog in 3 months, detected by auto nozzle check and cleaned without ruining any paper), or wait until Canon gets around to making a 5300.  I'm not surprised an Epson 4000 is having major problem with nozzle clogs, such an ancient printer which has long outlived it's expected life without, to compare that to current Epson's isn't too accurate. 

But after saying all that, I'll admit I am extremely critical of what comes out of a printer, and have to admit the 5100 will produce very nice prints. 
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ippolitois

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Re: IPF 6100 Opinions
« Reply #19 on: September 21, 2011, 09:32:14 am »

Hi Wayne,

Thanks for your comments. As for the 4000 being ancient, I'm not as critical as most are. I'm satisfied with the output using Imageprint. My customers would be hard pressed to see any difference between HDR inks and anything else. My major beef with these Epson printers is reliability. I'm on my third one now and the constant has always been clogging and clogging at the most unfortunate times when I have to deliver something.

I have followed the progress of the Epson printers for a long time, and from reading the comments here and elsewhere, it appears that the new Epson's are still plagued with the same problems as my 1990's 660. In the end, I would gladly sacrifice a little gamut or a feature or two for reliability. It's quite apparent that most, if not every Canon user here, doesn't have the same problems as Epson users in terms of machine reliability. Back when I was a kid, when you bought a car, it was expected that you would take it back several times to get a few things fixed. If that occurs today, the car is doomed from the outset. With the Internet, product success is determined within nanoseconds. I believe that Epson is still in the business of selling ink and what better way of doing so by not addressing a major engineering a flaw in it's design that is 20 years old. History has proven this theory with respect to the Epson approach. Some times, companies are staunch in there believes and never move forward to counter negative comments believing that their customers will always be there. Look at Kodak for the most recent example of this thinking.

I looked at the 3880 but was advised by Epson against it because it wasn't robust enough for my needs.  I was considering the 4900 but after reading all the negative comments and the usual issues, I passed on it. I agree with you about the 5300. I might just toil with this beast until Canon releases the updated version of the 5100. I'm curious to see what it feels like to be clog free. Turn it on, and print. Must be a nice feeling and something I look forward to. Although, your final comments about the 5100 leave me thinking again.

Is the the quality of the x300 series that much better than the x100 series? Is it worth the wait?

Thanks in advance.

Paul
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