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Author Topic: The Question 645D vs H4d-40  (Read 15842 times)

theguywitha645d

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Re: The Question 645D vs H4d-40
« Reply #20 on: September 15, 2011, 09:21:10 pm »

Finally the Elephant on the room:next generation Canon and Nikon systems. If the density of the new Sony cameras is any indication the next generation will be monsters  (24Mpixels with a crop sensor means 54mp full frame 35mm, but the industry is waiting for 30+ cameras)

If  the CaNikons  loose the antialias filter they will be killer machines with  killer lenses.


Or not. I saw the review of the new Sony 24MP sensor on LL. Yes it has 24MP, but it is not keeping up with the 24MP 35mm sensor it was compared with--the image was mushy--neither really compete with a Phase 25+ 24MP back either. Medium-format is not good because of the number of photo sites, but the size of the sensor. Lets just hope the new round of 35mm cameras are not a white elephant...
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John.Williams

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Re: The Question 645D vs H4d-40
« Reply #21 on: September 15, 2011, 09:57:56 pm »

Two blanket statements without any hard evidence to support them at all.

Hello Radu, welcome to the forum - many opinions and knowledge here to add to your experience.

If you have not seen the images from Hasselblad MF and need some example RAW files, we can provide for your review the evidence you seek in regards to color fidelity. Save the blankets for the cold weather!

Be well, stay creative!

John

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pipzz

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Re: The Question 645D vs H4d-40
« Reply #22 on: September 16, 2011, 03:01:01 am »

Quote
I would love to see some comparisons for low light. I shoot with the Pentax up to multi-minute exposures and have not really seen comparisons to the Hasselblad. Noise is really good in the Pentax, but it would be fun to see how much Hasselblad improves on that.

And can you show the difference in color palette? That would be interesting to see as well.

BTW, which Pentax and Hasselblad lenses did you compare?

It's easy to find on picasaweb full resolution photos taken with SDM 55mm and HCD 28mm (like Mercedes 2012 catalog) to compare night shots and daylight shots. For small prints, like 16x20", whey are both great.

Don't get me wrong, 645D kit has great value for $11k, but it's not competitor for $20k H4D-40 camera from IQ point of view.

And in turn, the H4D-40 can't compete with p45+. As P45+ gives crystal clear shadows at night shots.
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fotometria gr

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Re: The Question 645D vs H4d-40
« Reply #23 on: September 16, 2011, 04:23:13 am »

Or not. I saw the review of the new Sony 24MP sensor on LL. Yes it has 24MP, but it is not keeping up with the 24MP 35mm sensor it was compared with--the image was mushy--neither really compete with a Phase 25+ 24MP back either. Medium-format is not good because of the number of photo sites, but the size of the sensor. Lets just hope the new round of 35mm cameras are not a white elephant...
+++1. Just to add, its not only the above that is correct, it's also the lack of AA filters, the true 16bit, the luck of NR, the LPF... etc. Actually, nobody can appreciate MF unless he has used it. It's funny that there are people who think that MF DR, has anything to do with FF or APS-c. Perhaps its DXO to be blamed here, but shouldn't some people think "why so many top pros prefer MF than smaller?" Cheers, Theodoros. www.fotometria.gr
 P.S. Just to correct the obvious typo, P25+ is 22mp.
« Last Edit: September 24, 2011, 11:24:15 am by fotometria gr »
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Radu Arama

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Re: The Question 645D vs H4d-40
« Reply #24 on: September 16, 2011, 08:14:30 am »

Hello John and thank you for the welcome!

I am very aware that there is much more to learn and add to my very limited experience but I would prefer to do it from controlled tests that can show one system's advantage over another in terms of color accuracy and lens performance rather than from sentences like "brand A is the best, brand B not so much" (btw, that was NOT your sentence). I find it unfortunate that not even this site (IMO the Mecca of MF related stuff) cannot arrange for some comparative tests that could shed some light over the hard facts and remove any urban myths before they become to entrenched in the community mind.

Don't get me wrong I have nothing against Hasselblad it is only that besides the obvious advantages (tethering, "bigger" siblings in the family, much larger availability of lenses and accessories, pro support network, specialized lenses such as 100/2.2 and probably other things) I am still to see any evidence that from an iq point of view the H4D 40 can do better than the 645D. Maybe you can help me with that.

Best regards,
Radu
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theguywitha645d

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Re: The Question 645D vs H4d-40
« Reply #25 on: September 16, 2011, 09:56:02 am »

It's easy to find on picasaweb full resolution photos taken with SDM 55mm and HCD 28mm (like Mercedes 2012 catalog) to compare night shots and daylight shots. For small prints, like 16x20", whey are both great.

Don't get me wrong, 645D kit has great value for $11k, but it's not competitor for $20k H4D-40 camera from IQ point of view.

And in turn, the H4D-40 can't compete with p45+. As P45+ gives crystal clear shadows at night shots.

So actually, you don't have any direct comparisons to support your claim. Sorry, but looking at different photographs of different subjects shot under different conditions with different processing is not really evidence of anything. I have seen full-res images of different MFD cameras and nothing really stands out except that MFD can give very nice quality. What we really need is folks with first hand experience of these systems. Unfortunately, I have only used Pentax and Phase, but not Hasselblad, so I cannot give a comparison.
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Radu Arama

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Re: The Question 645D vs H4d-40
« Reply #26 on: September 16, 2011, 10:35:01 am »

So actually, you don't have any direct comparisons to support your claim. Sorry, but looking at different photographs of different subjects shot under different conditions with different processing is not really evidence of anything. I have seen full-res images of different MFD cameras and nothing really stands out except that MFD can give very nice quality. What we really need is folks with first hand experience of these systems. Unfortunately, I have only used Pentax and Phase, but not Hasselblad, so I cannot give a comparison.

Apparently he provides his "argumentation" here: http://forum.getdpi.com/forum/showpost.php?p=351217&postcount=17  ;D

Radu
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jduncan

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Re: The Question 645D vs H4d-40
« Reply #27 on: September 17, 2011, 11:59:01 am »

It's easy to find on picasaweb full resolution photos taken with SDM 55mm and HCD 28mm (like Mercedes 2012 catalog) to compare night shots and daylight shots. For small prints, like 16x20", whey are both great.

Don't get me wrong, 645D kit has great value for $11k, but it's not competitor for $20k H4D-40 camera from IQ point of view.

And in turn, the H4D-40 can't compete with p45+. As P45+ gives crystal clear shadows at night shots.

I find hard to believe that the Hasselblad has a big advantage over the Pentax in terms of IQ. This is based on a marketing analysis: In the old days, for people, Leaf use to have an advantage agains the other guys using Kodak sensors, and they put pictures (a lot of them vogue) for everyone to see.

We should expect that companies will point to  strengths  of the products they sale.

Hasselblad is all about hands on. My guess is that this is because they know they have a very strong system.  In the other hand go to the Hasselblad web side, download the examples and you will see:

Two images with the H3D-31, one with H3DII-39, one with the H3D-39

Pretty old machines.  It's unlikely that a company that actually believe they have a exceptional image quality will do something like that.  All that  pictures taken with discontinued  machines. If you are  right that fact don't make much  sense, if we don't assume unusual  things about Hasselblad management.

My guess is that  Hasselblad is selling a system that is (or was) far ahead of the  other medium format systems, with an inherent image quality well beyond that of 35mm DSLR and competitive with medium format alternatives. With pro support and multiple rental places.

Phase one was (is) selling a so called "open system", rugged, with  excellent image quality with  a strong system  for landscape,architecture (technical cameras)  and when combined with the H2 series for vogue. They also have Capture one.
Nowadays they are also selling on sensor technology that is ahead of the alternatives with prices to match.

Of course my objection is  based on a marketing analysis, so it can never be as strong as a hands on,  rigorous  analysis , but it will be  a shocking result.


Best regards,
James






« Last Edit: September 17, 2011, 12:02:00 pm by jduncan »
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LKaven

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Re: The Question 645D vs H4d-40
« Reply #28 on: September 17, 2011, 12:29:14 pm »

+++1. Just to add, its not only the above that is correct, it's also the lack of AA filters, the true 16bit, the luck of NR, the LPF...
There is no "true 16 bit" in any sensor made today, certainly not at the pixel level, especially not in any MFD sensor.  While MFD sensors have an advantage on sensor area, they lack the competitive CMOS technology deployed in the smaller sensors.  A full-frame Exmor sensor with 36+ MP would be a competitive offering much as the D3x is competitive with last year's MFD technology, which is to say that you will still have reasons to use both.

groggylobster

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Re: The Question 645D vs H4d-40
« Reply #29 on: September 18, 2011, 01:00:18 am »

I've been using the Pentax 645D for about six months so far, and very much liking it, mostly for landscape work.  Photography is a hobby, so I can't speak as a pro, and I've not used any other medium format systems to offer a comparison.  My other system is Nikon (D700) with a full assortment of lenses, including the ZF primes.  What tipped me to the 645D were a couple of points which aren't frequently mentioned: with a few adapters, the selection in glass can include Hasselblad V lenses CF, CFi CFE, Hasselblad F & FE, Pentax 67 and Pentacon Six lenses.  There's a lot of great glass that can be put on the 645D, but it does take time and patience hunting down good clean copies.  Some of them are down right bargins (although prices have spiked for the 645 lenses in the last year.)  It isn't for everyone, and the manual focus (& manual exposure) make for a slower workflow.  I find it works for me, for doing landscapes, cityscapes, and still life.  The 645D does have a nice feature for exposure -- instead of spinning the front finger wheel to adjust shutter speed in manual mode, you can press the green dot button, and the camera will immediately set shutter speed to what it thinks is correct exposure for the current meter mode.  You can then adjust from there with the finger wheel, if needed.  This makes manual exposure much faster, especially when using the lenses that require manual stop down.

With dual SDHC slots, the 645D works well with an EyeFi card in the 2nd slot, so it is possible to wirelessly beam 10mpix jpegs over to an ipad for preview in the field via Shuttersnitch photo application.  It isn't instant (10 - 20 seconds) but being able to view on a larger ipad screen is quite handy.  The EyeFi appears as a WiFi hotspot so the ipad can directly connect without an internet connection.  The full size 40mpix raw image is written to a regualr SDHC memory card in the 1st slot, to be manually downloaded later at home into Lightroom.  Battery life, even with the wifi card, is pretty good -- good enough that I usually can get by with 2 batteries (in mild climate).  The build and ease of use on the 645D is first class, and other than a few small differences, going from a D700 to the 645D took about a day or two to adjust.  The 645D can do long exposures well -- I've done 30s-4m exposures in bulb mode, no problems.  I normally use base ISO of 200, but going as high as ISO 800, the noise hasn't bothered me much (as long as you don't push too much in post).

I do wish that someone would make an adapter with mild tilt capabilities.  I've seen the threads on modifying a 67 55mm using shims, but haven't tried it yet.  The depth of field difference between the 645D, the FF D700, and the crop D300 is very noticable, and I find getting everything sharp requires a lot more attention (or, if subject allows, use multi-shot techniques and use focus stacking software...)

The Hasselblad PC Mutar shift adapter does indeed work on the 645D w/ 645-HB adapter, but it also adds an optical 1.4x tele-conversion.

Some examples are up here:
  http://www.flickr.com/photos/groggylobster/

The lenses that I've tried so far on the 645D (all manual focus)

The short list:
   SMC Pentax-A 645 1:3.5 35mm
   Hasselblad / Zeiss Distagon 1:4 40mm CFE IF via adapter
   SMC Pentax 67 1:4 55mm via adapter
   SMC Pentax-A 645 1:2.8 75mm
   Hasselblad / Zeiss Planar FE 1:2 110mm via adapter
   SMC Pentax-A 645 1:4 120mm Macro
   Hasselblad / Zeiss Sonnar CF 1:4 180mm via adapter
   SMC Pentax 67 1:4 300mm EDIF via adapter

I've also used these on the 645D, with no issues:
   Hasselblad / Zeiss PC Mutar 1.4 (CF)  (w/ 50mm CF FLE)
   Hasselblad / Zeiss 50mm CF FLE Distagon
   Hasselblad / Zeiss 60mm CF Distagon
   Hasselblad / Zeiss 100mm CF Planar
   Hasselblad / Zeiss 120mm CF Makro-Planar
   Hasselblad / Zeiss 250mm F Tele-Tessar
   Hasselblad / Fujinon 60-120mm 1:4.5 FE Zoom
   Carl Zeiss Jenna 180mm 1:2.8 via Pentacon Six - 645 adapter
   SMC Pentax-A 645 45-85mm 1:4.5 zoom
   SMC Pentax-A 645 80-160mm 1:4.5 zoom
   SMC Pentax-A 645 135mm 1:4 LS
   SMC Pentax 67 165mm 1:2.8
   SMC Pentax-A 645 150mm 1:3.5
   SMC Pentax-A 645 200mm 1:4

*) To use the Hasselblad CF, CFi, CFE lenses, cock the lens if it isn't already, put on the PT645-HB adapter, mount lens + adapter to camera body, set the lens' shutter to use focal plane, open the lens aperature with the stop down lever, select desired aperture on the ring, focus while wide open, stop down aperture with the lever, set exposure, take the shot.  When using the adapter with a Hasselblad lens on the 645D, there is no electrical or mechanical linkage between the lens and the body - the lens will not fire and should remain cocked.  You're using the shutter in the camera, and stopping down the aperature on the lens manually.  The Pentax 67 lenses are a bit more convienent -- you don't need to manually stop down, just select aperture with the ring on the lens, focus & expose, take the shot.  In the case of 67 lenses with the right adapter, there is mechanical linkage so the camera can stop down the lens.  The 645-A lenses have cpu contacts, so you can select both aperture and shutter speed with both finger wheels on the camera body.  I haven't tried any of the 645 autofocus lenses.  The 67 & Hasselblad adapters are from a company called Fotodiox.  The adapters for Pentacon-Six to 645 can be obtained online from a few distributors in the Ukraine.
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fotometria gr

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Re: The Question 645D vs H4d-40
« Reply #30 on: September 24, 2011, 11:35:01 am »

There is no "true 16 bit" in any sensor made today, certainly not at the pixel level, especially not in any MFD sensor.  While MFD sensors have an advantage on sensor area, they lack the competitive CMOS technology deployed in the smaller sensors.  A full-frame Exmor sensor with 36+ MP would be a competitive offering much as the D3x is competitive with last year's MFD technology, which is to say that you will still have reasons to use both.
16Bit may have been an impression on me that marketing succeeded, if that's the case, ....thanks for the quote! The conclusion is still active (and it applies to the D3X as well, which I sold recently). Regards, Theodoros. www.fotometria.gr
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