The Question 645D vs H4d-40

[markymarkrb]

I am considering buying a medium format digital camera and really can't come up with a solution.  I am primarily a landscape photographer.  Here are my options:

CPO H3DII-50 with 80mm $18,000
CPO H4D-40 with 80mm $16,000
Pentax 645D with 55mm $11,250

I like that the 645D is weather sealed and the cheapest of them all with the same sensor as the 40.  I do however, yearn for a future trade in opportunity that Hasselblad is so good at doing but is that worth $4,750?  I don't know.  I have used a h4d-40 before and it is a pretty impressive camera but I am wondering if it has been equally matched by the pentax in photo quality.  Does anyone have any sound non-biased advice?

Thanks,
Mark

[design_freak]

Well, advice will be very difficult. Hasselblad is a really good equipment, the peer for modifications to the firmware, H3DII50 gained much of the functionality. (Exposure time). H4D40 it is a really good piece of equipment, in my opinion the best in its class - would not venture to claim that the best camera produced by this brand so far. But since 40 million pixels is enough for you, you should consider a P45 + (bigger sensor, exposure time to 1 h) Do not rush the decision, test equipment in exactly the conditions corresponding to your operating mode. Good luck 

[Doug Peterson]

I can't promise unbiased advice (mine is in my signature). Instead I'll just let you know you'll get much better advice if you clearly lay out for the forum more information:
- what sort of photography you do today
- what volume of shooting do you do
- what elements of cameras you have owned have been important to you
- whether you think your interest in photography might expand/change or whether you are fairly locked into a genre/technique/usage (e.g. maybe today you have no interest in a technical camera but in a year you might)
- what other cameras (if any) you might keep to complement/supplement your MF gear
- if you have tried either (or any other) option and if so what your impressions were of the positives/negatives (you mention you tried the H4D and it is "impressive" - I agree but it would be useful when asking for input if you could be more specific with your observations on what was and wasn't working for you with the system so people can compare/contrast those details with the Pentax and other MF options).
- if you want to go it alone and learn entirely through forums/internet or whether you think you'd benefit from a dealer whose entire job is to make sure you get the right equipment for your needs and then get the most out of that equipment with the least effort and frustration (a loaded question to be sure, but trust me I've met and respected both kinds of people - some people really do just prefer a user manual and a forum to a personal point of contact)
- whether you've worked with Phocus or Capture One, would be willing to try them (they are the way to get the most out of Hassy/Phase/Leaf files) or would be absolutely adamant about converting in a generic convertor like LightRoom

The reason I say this is because there is no "best camera" there isn't even a "best camera for the money". There is only a "best tool for the job" and we need to know what "job" the "tool" will be used for. For instance if you shoot a significant percentage of your shots hand held in the rain (e.g. covering weather related stories for a magazine) then the Pentax's weather sealing will be - by itself - reason to buy the Pentax and you can forget about other criterium.

If your needs call for a system which can shoot tethered, use a technical camera, or sync with flash at all high speed then the Hassy (or one of the other MF options) is a much better choice.

If you like using unusual/3rd party lenses (which requires a body with a focal plane) then the Pentax (or one of the other MF options) is going to be a better choice.

So anyway, tell the forum more about you, and you'll get much more relevant advice!

I'd also (in a biased way) point out there there are a few other options in the same general range with their own advantages/disadvantages.
- New Leaf/Mamiya DM28+DF+80LS = $11k
- New Leaf/Mamiya DM40+DF+80LS = $17.5k
- A pre-owned Phase P40+ or P45 non plus, P45+ with body/lens for around the same as the H4D-40 kit (prices will vary on number of shots, warranty, and which of the three backs)

The DM28 kit is particularly interesting in that if you don't need the resolution of 40mp (and if you haven't experienced it you can't compare 28mp from a digital back to similar resolutions from a Canon/Nikon/Sony) then you'd get a system with much of the flexibility (multiple bodies, tech cameras, sync speed, dealer support, future upgrade value) of the Hassy for the cost of the Pentax (along with other advantages and disadvantages compared to either).

Unless you've specifically excluded them for a reason I'd include them in your research.

Doug Peterson (e-mail Me)
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[theguywitha645d]

I can't speak about trade-in values--I usually hold on to my cameras for a long time and shifts in technology don't make predictions easy (who would have predicted a $10,000 40MP MFD camera?). Used Pentax glass is also cheaper than the Hasselblad optics, so I would factor that into your costs.

The Pentax makes great images. It is a modern camera with all the convenience and flexibility that comes with that--I did not think I would use half of the exposures modes, but have found situations for them all and customizing the dial operation is very nice. ISO up to 1600 with no limitation for exposure time I have found.

It is very comfortable in the field--easy to carry, easy to hold. I picked up a Pentax Refconverter 90 degree angle finder which is great for low or awkward camera positions--screws into the eyepiece and can rotate. The two tripod sockets are a really nice touch--it is nice having the camera right over the head with vertical images without any adapters and such. The electronic level is nice as well--yaw and pitch on the monitor and pitch in the viewfinder. The battery lasts forever--I have two batteries and have yet to exhaust one in a full day of shooting, but I have not gone through Winter. The batteries are cheap and relatively available as they fit the current line of Pentax DSLRs. There is even a GPS accessory to record the image location.

I have a three lens kit. The DFA 55mm, A 35mm, and A 120mm Macro. They are very nice lenses. Two A lenses are manual focus and I have not had problems focusing them (I am using the Pentax gridded screen), but there are also autofocus versions. I have heard good things about the zoom lenses and the ED telephotos. (The 45mm prime is universally panned as a dog.)

The only downside is write times for preview can be sluggish, but everybody is in a rush today...

But camera purchases are personal. I would try to get your hands on some MFD cameras and try them out (although I bought my camera blind [but not my first MFD]). MFD image quality is going to be great whatever you get. I don't think you are going to be disappointed whether you end up with a Pentax or a Hasselblad.

[John.Williams]

Doug has a great set of questions that if we were able to know the answer, would help justify a qualified response to your broader question of "which camera is right for me?"

It is incomplete to frame the price difference to a single thing (trade-in, upgrades, lens selection, etc.) as more factors may improve or reduce your value to the difference in acquisition cost.

Would like to help and see your replies to the questions above, I believe you will receive good advice from the readers.

It may be possible to get an idea of the workflow from shot to process using each of the solutions to confirm your decision.

John

[markymarkrb]

Thanks for all of the great advice!  I have not been able to come up with a solution to my style.  Here are a few more things about me and I am hoping to get a few more opinions on which direction I should follow.

I currently own a Fuji GX617 with a few different lenses but almost always use the 105mm, which shoots about 89 degrees per shot.  I can really say that the only type of photography I really enjoy is landscape photography.  I like the adventure and bringing home and sharing what I saw in a big way.  I am sold on medium format.  My problem is that I am struggling with the post shooting process with film in today's world.  Sending off the film and not being able to see what I got at the location has started to bother me a little too.  Drum scanning for $150 a pop isn't really fun either and I have mixed feelings on the results.  I think that shooting digital MF will at least cut out one step between the camera and the printer.  I carry a Nikon D90 with me when I shoot just because I want to take something of the area that I was in in case I fail with film.  I want to only carry one camera.  I really like the 617 format and want to compromise by stitching with a medium format digital until technology and my budget catch up.  I am hoping the RED 617 is in my future.  Until then, I want a camera that can get good MF digital results,  for a good price and won't loose too much value for a resale.  I liked the H4D-40 when I used it but it seems to me that it is more of a studio camera and that most landscape photographers I see are using a Phase setup.  Phocus is ok, I want to try Capture one but haven't done so yet.  I really wouldn't mind going with a Pentax 645D if people thought the results they are getting are somewhat similar to a H4D.  I don't know if this is enough or too much but that is where I am sitting.  I really don't see myself spending more than 16K on this next purchase and that is a stretch as well.  Thanks for reading.

Mark

[BernardLanguillier]

Just out of curiosity, have you tried stitching with your D90?

Cheers,
Bernard

[theguywitha645d]

Mark, perhaps I  can help. Here is a stitch I did with the DFA 55mm at f/11 and ISO 400 this weekend on a casual hike. The focus was set on the trees in the foreground. The pano is four horizontal images taken handheld--the gridded focus screen helps. Stitched in Photoshop with a cylindrical projection. Final size, 15,556x5,195 pixels. There are two 100% crops of the foreground trees and the bay so you can get an idea of the detail even with aerial haze (click on the thumbnails below).

I do use a nodal slide. I have an Arca Swiss P0 ball head and found the Manfrotto macro rail to be an good inexpensive nodal slide--I can use it with the DFA 55mm and A 35mm. Since the 645D has two tripod sockets, the macro rail is enough for both stitching vertical and horizontal camera orientations.

Oddly enough I have just made a similar jump. I sold my film gear and invested in the 645D--including my Horseman SW612 and Widelux. It has been a good move for me, but there it some getting used to. The camera is not really hard to use, but getting used to a digital workflow is taking some time. But I always go through a transition with a new camera or process.

About the budget. I also got two manual focus lenses with my 645D, a weatherproof IR remote, and an angle finder, which added about another $1,000 to the price. I like my A 35mm and A 120mm macro manual focus lenses--I use the macro for landscapes primarily. The AF versions are two to three time more expensive than their manual focus cousins.

[markymarkrb]

Haha, great question.  No, I have not stitched with it and really am not interested to.  Going from MF film to stitching with the D90 would really not cut it for me.

Mark

[Guy Mancuso]

Haha, great question.  No, I have not stitched with it and really am not interested to.  Going from MF film to stitching with the D90 would really not cut it for me.

Mark

In your quest here do NOT leave out a used P40 plus at around 13k for the back. It's a cropped sensor of the P65 and the IQ 160. I owned the P40 for over a year before moving up to the IQ 160. Great back , excellent quality and excellent files. I have had a lot of Phase backs for awhile  now and still like them very much. As always try these cams out with there software and workflow and see if it fits your style. But I have owned this back and can only recommend it highly and the system. But for the money maybe one of the best backs out there, they are all good no question about it . You just need to handle them and see what works for ya and don't buy by price. Usually going MF you need to think system and all that is involved is the best choice. Good luck

[pipzz]

Any Hassy will give you incredible colors right of the box. Phase only approaching that colors now with IQ180. Most Phase colors are very natural (like shot on Fuji Astia). But who wants that natural colors in landscape anyway? This is not jewelry catalogue shooting. You can rent Hassy lenses around the world. Pentax has noise in shadows at dim light and lenses sharpness could be better.

If weatherproof and light camera is your priority, go for Pentax. If you about colors and sharpness go for Hassy.

> I have used a h4d-40 before and it is a pretty impressive camera but I am wondering if it has been equally matched by the pentax in photo quality.

This year Mercedes-Benz A and C class catalog was shot on H4D-40.

P.S. Ultimate landscape camera is Alpa TC+IQ180+HR23+HR60+Gitzo2541+Arca-SwissPO

[design_freak]

Thanks for all of the great advice!  I have not been able to come up with a solution to my style.  Here are a few more things about me and I am hoping to get a few more opinions on which direction I should follow.

I currently own a Fuji GX617 with a few different lenses but almost always use the 105mm, which shoots about 89 degrees per shot.  I can really say that the only type of photography I really enjoy is landscape photography.  I like the adventure and bringing home and sharing what I saw in a big way.  I am sold on medium format.  My problem is that I am struggling with the post shooting process with film in today's world.  Sending off the film and not being able to see what I got at the location has started to bother me a little too.  Drum scanning for $150 a pop isn't really fun either and I have mixed feelings on the results.  I think that shooting digital MF will at least cut out one step between the camera and the printer.  I carry a Nikon D90 with me when I shoot just because I want to take something of the area that I was in in case I fail with film.  I want to only carry one camera.  I really like the 617 format and want to compromise by stitching with a medium format digital until technology and my budget catch up.  I am hoping the RED 617 is in my future.  Until then, I want a camera that can get good MF digital results,  for a good price and won't loose too much value for a resale.  I liked the H4D-40 when I used it but it seems to me that it is more of a studio camera and that most landscape photographers I see are using a Phase setup.  Phocus is ok, I want to try Capture one but haven't done so yet.  I really wouldn't mind going with a Pentax 645D if people thought the results they are getting are somewhat similar to a H4D.  I don't know if this is enough or too much but that is where I am sitting.  I really don't see myself spending more than 16K on this next purchase and that is a stretch as well.  Thanks for reading.

Mark

Enjoy 
http://www.roundshot.ch/xml_1/internet/de/application/d438/d925/f934.cfm

[John.Williams]

Hi Mark,

Not sure if we have addressed the 645D vs. the H4D-40 question for you in this thread - thanks for posting additional information.

Peter Lorber (another Hasselblad reseller down in Boca Raton FL) shoots landscape and in a big way; he has several photography workshops that are centered around this discipline - not the least of which is an upcoming one to capture the fall foliage change.

You will find the Hasselblad is well suited for landscape photography and having carried one myself through Zion Canyon, is not as light as the Nikon, but the scenery justified the MF camera.

If the purpose of the camera is to shoot landscapes most of the time, but also to perform well in other shooting scenarios, then the next step is to select your resolution; 31, 40, 39, 50, 60. For reference in the Pentax price range, a new Hasselblad complete kit in the 31MP is $13995 and we have (2) H3DII-39 under $12995. We have addressed the value of used cameras in a separate forum and can provide guidance on the Hasselblad models if needed.

The longer exposures of the H4D-40 are beneficial if night photography is in your strategy - including the ISO 1600 for 20-30 second exposures that capture the Milky Way but avoid star trails due to Earth rotation.

Hope this helps,

John

[theguywitha645d]

The longer exposures of the H4D-40 are beneficial if night photography is in your strategy - including the ISO 1600 for 20-30 second exposures that capture the Milky Way but avoid star trails due to Earth rotation.

John, stars can trail in 20-30 seconds. I use the Pentax 645D for wide-field astrophotography and you claim that you can shoot the Milky Way at ISO 1600 with a 20-30 second exposure is a bit of a stretch even wide open (which will show too many lens aberrations). You won't get enough data to define it in a single shot and stacking can only get so far. At ISO 1600, I routinely shoot 3-5 minute exposures for the Milky Way.

I won't say you can't do astrophotography with a Hasselblad, you can do it with many cameras, but what you are saying is really not very illuminating.

[theguywitha645d]

Pentax has noise in shadows at dim light and lenses sharpness could be better.

If weatherproof and light camera is your priority, go for Pentax. If you about colors and sharpness go for Hassy.

> I have used a h4d-40 before and it is a pretty impressive camera but I am wondering if it has been equally matched by the pentax in photo quality.

This year Mercedes-Benz A and C class catalog was shot on H4D-40.

P.S. Ultimate landscape camera is Alpa TC+IQ180+HR23+HR60+Gitzo2541+Arca-SwissPO

I would love to see some comparisons for low light. I shoot with the Pentax up to multi-minute exposures and have not really seen comparisons to the Hasselblad. Noise is really good in the Pentax, but it would be fun to see how much Hasselblad improves on that.

And can you show the difference in color palette? That would be interesting to see as well.

BTW, which Pentax and Hasselblad lenses did you compare?

[jduncan]

I am considering buying a medium format digital camera and really can't come up with a solution.  I am primarily a landscape photographer.  Here are my options:

CPO H3DII-50 with 80mm $18,000
CPO H4D-40 with 80mm $16,000
Pentax 645D with 55mm $11,250

I like that the 645D is weather sealed and the cheapest of them all with the same sensor as the 40.  I do however, yearn for a future trade in opportunity that Hasselblad is so good at doing but is that worth $4,750?  I don't know.  I have used a h4d-40 before and it is a pretty impressive camera but I am wondering if it has been equally matched by the pentax in photo quality.  Does anyone have any sound non-biased advice?

Thanks,
Mark 

I believe that the issue will be between the  H4D-40 and the Pentax. I will not recommend the older technology, even more so taking into account the new firmware update.  For me working linked to the computer is one of the strong points of medium format. Is far beyond the normal experience with my Nikons.  You have full frame focus area plus other strong points. The pentax is not that good at it.  The second point will be technical cameras. That is not important to me but maybe it is for you. Hasselblad has a bunch of interesting options including:

1.  TS adapter.
2.  GPS (just like Pentax)
3. You can power the camera from mains.
4. True focus.
5. The system has more than one camera, so if you need higher resolution for a particular Job you can rent just the body and use your expertise and lenses with the rented body.

On the other hand  Pentax is a very modern camera with options etc, plus it will continue to benefit from the advances of  35mm SLR.

Best regards,

James

[fotometria gr]

In your quest here do NOT leave out a used P40 plus at around 13k for the back. It's a cropped sensor of the P65 and the IQ 160. I owned the P40 for over a year before moving up to the IQ 160. Great back , excellent quality and excellent files. I have had a lot of Phase backs for awhile  now and still like them very much. As always try these cams out with there software and workflow and see if it fits your style. But I have owned this back and can only recommend it highly and the system. But for the money maybe one of the best backs out there, they are all good no question about it . You just need to handle them and see what works for ya and don't buy by price. Usually going MF you need to think system and all that is involved is the best choice. Good luck

I am surprised nobody mentioned the Sinarback 75 or the Leaf 7 or even 75! The Sinar has the big advantage of the adapter, so it can be used with any camera! There is the P45+ long exposure advantage of course, but I don't feel that Extra long exposure is needed. My suggestion would be S/H with one of the above mentioned backs and Zeiss glass! So...., either Contax 645 or Hassy V. Cheers Theodoros, www.fotometria.gr

[Radu Arama]

I am considering buying a medium format digital camera and really can't come up with a solution.  I am primarily a landscape photographer.  Here are my options:

CPO H3DII-50 with 80mm $18,000
CPO H4D-40 with 80mm $16,000
Pentax 645D with 55mm $11,250

I like that the 645D is weather sealed and the cheapest of them all with the same sensor as the 40.  I do however, yearn for a future trade in opportunity that Hasselblad is so good at doing but is that worth $4,750?  I don't know.  I have used a h4d-40 before and it is a pretty impressive camera but I am wondering if it has been equally matched by the pentax in photo quality.  Does anyone have any sound non-biased advice?

Thanks,
Mark

1) The lens focal lengths are not very close. You can buy  from Japan the Pentax 75mm/2.8 new for something like 600-700 USD if you need that more than 55mm or you need both.

2) Secondly whilst nobody can claim to know the future I predict that the market for pre-owned MF cameras will forever change when the first wave of used 645D will hit the market (probably next year after Photokina). What would you personally chose today between a CPO Hasselblad H4D 40 w 80mm for 16K or a pre owned 645D+55mm for let's say 8K? I think that will give you an idea why there will be a lot harder for dealers and factories to push used (and pretty recent models) for today's prices. Thus it will be harder to offer as large as today discount for trade ins. What I am trying to say is that IMHO if you buy the H4D 40 tomorrow for 16K you will maybe able to sell it or trade in it in 18 months' time for 7-8K tops. Probably your 11K+ Pentax will be 6K+ in 18 months but you have a bigger chance that the next "New Pentax" will still cost half as much as the next "New Hasselblad" with the same or close sensor. Plus if you lose 5K USD in 18 months of usage thats under 10 dollars per day.

3) How much is a L plate for the Hasselblad (0 USD for the 645D)?
    How much is the second battery pack for a Hasselblad (36 USD for Pentax) and how many shots will it get you at 20+ centigrade (800)? What about in the winter time? (still 650 or so for the Pentax at -10 centigrade)?
    How much is the Hasselblad GPS unit (250 USD for Pentax')?
    How much is a high performance 64GB CF card for Hasselblad vs. 2x32GB SDHC cards for Pentax?

4) The almost 1 kilo weight difference for the camera + lens is important to you?

Radu

[Radu Arama]

Any Hassy will give you incredible colors right of the box.  Pentax has noise in shadows at dim light and lenses sharpness could be better.

Two blanket statements without any hard evidence to support them at all.

If weatherproof and light camera is your priority, go for Pentax. If you about colors and sharpness go for Hassy.

Another very shallow advice in fact Pentax has only two lenses that are weatherproofed and in equally skilled hands for most focal lengths the difference in sharpness and colors will probably be impossible to asses.

This year Mercedes-Benz A and C class catalog was shot on H4D-40.

That proves nothing except that the agency that has this account has a workflow based around Hasselblad gear or trusts another company to deliver the quality needed. BTW, I imagine that when working with inanimate objects like cars one can actually use the multishot features of other Hasselblad cameras. IMHO it will take a long time for lots of professionals to change their current systems regardless of any other offers because I imagine that even if the economy would be in excess of 50 000 USD or Euro the lost time used in modifying the workflow would cost much, much more. Maybe if one camera could do something that any other can there will be an incentive. On the other hand for a lot of amateurs and enthusiasts I bet that the "magic color souce" and "pixie dust" stories won't make up for the money difference.
 
Radu

[jduncan]

1) The lens focal lengths are not very close. You can buy  from Japan the Pentax 75mm/2.8 new for something like 600-700 USD if you need that more than 55mm or you need both.

2) Secondly whilst nobody can claim to know the future I predict that the market for pre-owned MF cameras will forever change when the first wave of used 645D will hit the market (probably next year after Photokina). What would you personally chose today between a CPO Hasselblad H4D 40 w 80mm for 16K or a pre owned 645D+55mm for let's say 8K? I think that will give you an idea why there will be a lot harder for dealers and factories to push used (and pretty recent models) for today's prices. Thus it will be harder to offer as large as today discount for trade ins. What I am trying to say is that IMHO if you buy the H4D 40 tomorrow for 16K you will maybe able to sell it or trade in it in 18 months' time for 7-8K tops. Probably your 11K+ Pentax will be 6K+ in 18 months but you have a bigger chance that the next "New Pentax" will still cost half as much as the next "New Hasselblad" with the same or close sensor. Plus if you lose 5K USD in 18 months of usage thats under 10 dollars per day.

3) How much is a L plate for the Hasselblad (0 USD for the 645D)?
    How much is the second battery pack for a Hasselblad (36 USD for Pentax) and how many shots will it get you at 20+ centigrade (800)? What about in the winter time? (still 650 or so for the Pentax at -10 centigrade)?
    How much is the Hasselblad GPS unit (250 USD for Pentax')?
    How much is a high performance 64GB CF card for Hasselblad vs. 2x32GB SDHC cards for Pentax?

4) The almost 1 kilo weight difference for the camera + lens is important to you?

Radu

That's a very strong points for the Pentax, price wise nothing can get it, plus the battery etc.
Few months ago I was making the point that Hasselblad could get sandwiched between Phase one on the top and Pentax on the bottom.
Looks like it's becoming so. But for some professional the Pentax simply will not cut it.

I Still believe that the H4D system remains completive. When the H4D-40 was introduced, for most medium format application,s the machine was a super strong proposition. Now is no longer clear.
That good for us, in the market sense, as users.

Finally the Elephant on the room:next generation Canon and Nikon systems. If the density of the new Sony cameras is any indication, the next generation will be monsters  (24Mpixels with a crop sensor means 54mp full frame 35mm, but the industry is waiting for 30+ cameras)

If  the CaNikons  loose the antialias filter they will be killer machines, with  killer lenses.

Medium format will continue to be a different  medium, with a different set of specs  and strengths , but it  will be in a different position.

Best regards,
James