Topic: Lighting flash duration question (Read 16856 times)

roskav · « **on:** September 12, 2011, 05:51:44 am »

Hi Sorry this is a lighting question. I'm looking to upgrade from a bowens system circa 2001. I have a lot of bowens gear so it makes sense to stay with that. But the question I have is whether it is better to go for a quad system or the new gemini pro series. I would like to use them in studio and on location with the main requirement being the shortest flash duration possible. I can see that the more expensive quad system is better in that regard etc but the gemini pros don't seem too shabby either. They also have quite a neat battery pack. The quad system's battery packs are quite large in contrast. The Geminis .. although not as fast, seem quite good on paper and about half the price for a similar capability. Is the quad system being superseeded or is it still a contender?

R

roskav · « **Reply #1 on:** September 12, 2011, 11:04:26 am »

Hi Nick .. good question but the min speed of the Geminis looks very good at 1/2900 at lowest setting on the 500W version. The Quadx 3000 goes from 1/1430 to 1/7100 but does actually have a lower refresh rate by the looks of it. I would be happy with something over 1/500 for outside work (I'm not sure at what power the Gemini hits this speed) but I would like something super fast for studio work as I would like to get splashes etc in some product shots. I haven't done this particular type of product shoot yet so am inexperienced as to what speed I would need. The system I use currently doesn't do a good job of freezing dance movement.. I sometimes use continuous light with high burst rates at high iso.. which works out quite well for press shots etc but not at the quality that I think would really stand out. So I'm not sure .. but would like to get something that wouldn't limit me.
Ros

JerryReed · « **Reply #2 on:** September 12, 2011, 11:34:29 am »

Is anything faster at this point than BRONCOLOR Scoro? If so I would be interested to know.

My sense is that one could use a bi-tube PULSO hooked to two Scoros to get lots of light maybe as much as 3200 ws, but still very fast light. The fastest shutter that I am aware of is 1000 of a second, so at some point ambient light get to be the controlling factor.

roskav · « **Reply #3 on:** September 12, 2011, 11:50:03 am »

Hi Jerry no the Scoro looks like it beats the bowens fair and square. Expensive but worth it I'm sure.
R

michele · « **Reply #4 on:** September 12, 2011, 03:59:32 pm »

For splashes photographs you need very fast flash duration, but this isn't the only thing to think about, there is much to learn about how you have to light an object, falloff of light will cause you problems on freezing the action, it's always a good idea using the very center of the lighting source, hard light is better then soft one... The lens is also a problem, longer lenses require faster flash duration.. I have a 210mm with my phaseone camera with the P45+, when I photograph a bottle of wine if I use a 600compact flash, I have all Profoto gear, even with the lowest power level, the photographs are blurred... I mean, the bottle is still, the camera is on the heavy tripod, I use the mirror up, my studio is absolutely black with just the strobe as the light source but the photos are blurred... With that lens I have to use the Profoto 7a pack... I repeat, longer lenses require faster flash duration. So, the speed that you need depends also on your technique and your kind of subject. There is a good system for triggering flashes with fast object, it's the Mumford Time Machine, they sell also a very interesting accessory, it can misure the speed of the duration of th flash, is very usefull because you always know where the light from your strobe is faster, so you can use just that slice of light

Sorry for my bad english... I hope it helps

Michele

UlfKrentz · « **Reply #5 on:** September 12, 2011, 05:52:54 pm »

Ros,

If you want to stay with Bowens and need a short flash duration I won´t consider the geminis. QuadX is the way to go, the heads use a three electrode flash tube which produces a significantly shorter flash duration. QuadX has four sockets, also adds color stabilisation over it´s power range. I don´t like heavy light heads (like compacts usually are), and always prefer pack / head combination, YMMV. I heared people complain about the mechanic strength of the lamp bases though.

It all depends on what you want to do, if you need a short flash duration with a lot of power you are well served with the Quads. For freezing water / splash etc. probably nothing will beat the Scoro, Grafit or the Einstein. These units work with an active IGBT controlled cut off of the light emission that produces razor sharp edges when the output power level is reduced for more than about 2 f-stops. Your drops won´t look like reverse swimming tadpoles, not even when you decide to allow some movement by setting your flash duration longer with those bron packs. Additionally with twin heads you are able to half the time once more.
Don´t only look at the specs, they are pretty useless, sometimes t0,5 sometimes t0,1 (which makes a big difference) and also the electronics inside like the cut off circut vs. standard discharge of a capacitor (or even those pre-ignition flashes one manufacturer uses) have great influence on the final look of your image.

We do not own separate battery powered packs, I prefer using the same professional gear outdoors, mains powered through long extension cables, gas-generator or as last solution a battery powered inverter system.

@ michele: It is the movement your subject will have on the sensor or film during the exposure, no matter what lens you apply. The desired look of your image will suggest the way of the lighting method.

Cheers, Ulf

EricWHiss · « **Reply #6 on:** September 12, 2011, 08:21:38 pm »

Quote from: michele on September 12, 2011, 03:59:32 pm

The lens is also a problem, longer lenses require faster flash duration.. I have a .... phaseone camera ....when I photograph a bottle of wine if I use a 600compact flash, I have all Profoto gear, even with the lowest power level, the photographs are blurred... I mean, the bottle is still, the camera is on the heavy tripod, I use the mirror up, my studio is absolutely black with just the strobe as the light source but the photos are blurred...

Michelle,
I think the problem you describe has a lot more to do with the phase / mamiya DF body than anything else, lens length, flash etc.

HarperPhotos · « **Reply #7 on:** September 12, 2011, 08:57:19 pm »

Hi Ros,

I too use Bowens flash. I did a shoot last week for a milk company where the art director wanted some milk splashes shot.

I used my Bowens Explorer 1500 generator with a Bowens 3k head which uses 3 electrodes.
I was triggering the flash at 5,700th of a second and the images where pin sharp.

The Camera was a Nikon D3X mounted on a Horseman VCC unit and a Rodenstock 105mm Apo-Rodagon N lens using F16.0.

Also the Explorer is a great generator for shooting on location and at 1500 watts is I think the most powerful battery generator on the market.

I have been told by Bowens UK that there is a new Bowens 2400 watt generator coming out soon which will have a faster flash speed compared to the present model.

Cheers

Simon

pipzz · « **Reply #8 on:** September 12, 2011, 09:07:11 pm »

Quote from: JerryReed on September 12, 2011, 11:34:29 am

...The fastest shutter that I am aware of is 1000 of a second, so at some point ambient light get to be the controlling factor.

Fastest is tiny and brilliant Fuji X100. It has full sync at 1/4000 sec @ f8

HarperPhotos · « **Reply #9 on:** September 12, 2011, 09:17:26 pm »

Hello,

Bowens Explorer 1500 with Bowens Sun Light reflector.

Cheers

Simon

roskav · « **Reply #10 on:** September 13, 2011, 04:43:56 am »

Hello All

Thanks so much for your replies. Really informative. It is actually milk splash that I will be photographing so Simon good to hear your experience. I will be using a combo of Nikon and a Leaf on Hass-bd so interesting to hear opinions on iso etc too. I will have a look at the Einstein too as I am not familiar with that system. It seems that the pack system offers the most latitude so I'll gear myself that way. Even though I have a lot of bowens gear, only some are not adaptable to other systems so no huge imperative to stay within that system.

Thanks again .. much appreciated and I'll let you know how I get on.

Ros

JerryReed · « **Reply #11 on:** September 13, 2011, 06:37:41 am »

Also the Explorer is a great generator for shooting on location and at 1500 watts is I think the most powerful battery generator on the market.

I believe that Broncolor VERSO A4 provides 3200 WS.

Jerry Reed

Paul Barker · « **Reply #12 on:** September 13, 2011, 09:06:43 am »

Colleague I share a studio with uses Bowens and has an Explorer 1500. He was successfully (I think, I didn't see the pics closely) was shooting bursting water filled balloons. Although I believe you have to have the pack on full power to get the shortest duration. Not sure why that is as usually you get shortest durations with minimum power with other manufacturers.

It also depends on the speed of motion you're trying to freeze, and when you press the button. i.e. when people jump, at the top of the jump, these's not so much motion to freeze as on the way up, or coming down. I did some tests throwing water and you need faster duration's to freeze more forceful motion. The cheapest solution for that is to use speedlites, which can get down to really short durations like 1/30,000- 1/40,000s Less light of course and you have to be a bit more creative using light shapers.

Some tips in these links may also be of help:
http://www.pixiq.com/article/mastering-splash-magic-behind-a-liquid-photography
http://www.akelstudio.com/blog/water-splash-photography-again-water-splash-with-berries-and-apple/

Quote from: JerryReed on September 12, 2011, 11:34:29 am

Is anything faster at this point than BRONCOLOR Scoro? If so I would be interested to know.

A Profoto 8a Air is about the same at 1/12000s at t0.5 at minimum power, down to 1/2200 at full. The Bron spec is a little confusing for the ScoroA2s: 'Flash duration t 0.1 on max. energy: 1/535 s', then it says: 'Variation range of flash duration t 0.1: 1/150 - 1/8000 s'. That's at 1200J speed mode. So looks if you want to stop action at full power, the Profoto looks a better bet. But of course you could reduce duration even more, with either system, by using twin tube heads.

As an aside, I used to use Bowens, in fact I used to shoot product brochures for them in the late 80s. My colleague shoots for them now (which I guess is why he uses them, getting stuff cheap or in exchange for work), so I know the products pretty well. I can't say I ever liked them though and when I set up on my own, went for Elinchrom, which at the time I was reasonably happy with and still have some. About 8 years ago I started buying Profoto, which I'm very happy with. Love the zoom reflectors and much prefer the more analogue switching and dials compared to pressing buttons and navigating menus. But yes, it costs more. Bowens goes pop and is good value for money and no one can tell what you used when it's on the page, so just comes down to personal preference.

Cheers

roskav · « **Reply #13 on:** September 13, 2011, 10:10:07 am »

Thanks again... Bowens goes pop .. I like it. BTW The article on Rob Galbraith about the Einsteins is a really good read. I had seen it before but hadn't taken the time to go through it.

Ros

UlfKrentz · « **Reply #14 on:** September 13, 2011, 10:41:25 am »

Quote from: JerryReed on September 13, 2011, 06:37:41 am

Also the Explorer is a great generator for shooting on location and at 1500 watts is I think the most powerful battery generator on the market.

I believe that Broncolor VERSO A4 provides 3200 WS.

Jerry Reed

Verso A4 is rated with 2400WS

Cheers, Ulf

EricWHiss · « **Reply #15 on:** September 13, 2011, 12:19:31 pm »

For macro work and small stuff, I very often use my canon or metz flash units. Besides being really small and easy to position where you want them, they have super fast durations compared to the studio strobes. When they are up close they put out more than enough light even at low settings.

Paul Barker · « **Reply #16 on:** September 13, 2011, 12:52:14 pm »

Quote from: Nick Walker on September 13, 2011, 10:27:35 am

Unless the light unit uses IGBT technology, or similar technology, the flash duration is the shortest somewhere between half to full power. If manufacturers quoted t,0.1 ratings instead of t,0.5 ratings,the purchaser would have a better idea of a products flash freezing capabilities - closer to a cameras shutter speed.

Other than Einsteins, Bron and some Dynalite units most other manufacturers lights are about three times slower than the t,0.5 figures quoted, includes Profoto, Elinchrom, etc. T,0.5 high flash speed figures look great on paper but in reality are misleading AFAIK - a clear demonstration http://www.scantips.com/speed.html

Rob Galbraith's excellent article, especially mouse overs, is worth looking at as he compares flash duration to camera shutter speeds - http://www.robgalbraith.com/bins/multi_page.asp?cid=7-10053-10715

Yes Nick, good links and I agree t0.5 is misleading as whole of the flash is making up the exposure, including the tail which gives the blur, if too long.

Well, looks like I have to change my lighting again.... I just found this: http://biwastudios.blogspot.com/2010/02/broncolor-scoroa4-vs-profoto-8a.html Looks like Profoto are crap after all! And just to rub it in, after I said I like analogue dials, I'm apparently a dummy!

"However, after testing the ProFoto, we can see the appeal of having analog dials, and how the lack of precision and super-simplicity could make non-technical photographers feel comfortable. Profoto is like 'Strobe for dummies'"

Well at least Bron have moved on from the days of 404 packs I used in my assisting days. They couldn't freeze a tortoise. We had to use the camera shutter to stop models in movement. But at least they were lighter than the Strobe Equipment city 5000 packs!

I'm planning to do some water shots, but I have Canon, Nikon and Metz guns, so will try them. Way back in college days, a fellow student used similar, units, most probably vivitar, to capture an air gun pellet hitting an old 500w studio bulb. Triggered with a sound sensor, worked a treat, froze everything, including the pellet.

Pantoned · « **Reply #17 on:** September 15, 2011, 07:01:28 am »

Yes, there should be a standard to report flash durations, it is kind of difficult to compare different brands without empirical tests. I have used bowens for some years now; I did some shots yesterday to try out quadx, explorer and metz, didn't bother with the geminis, even the pro models will not do the job. What I found is that explorer and quadx did a similar job with a very sharp center but gave me blurred motions in the small far away drops; I wonder if this is a cause of flash light tail or that I shouldn't have used beauty dish. Metz froze everything, but of course at f4 very little was on focus.

Cheers. Arnau.

Quentin · « **Reply #18 on:** September 15, 2011, 09:11:45 am »

Gemini Pros are good for most studio work:

They will do fast flash durations but this shot below:

is pushing the boundaries

Both shots with Hasselblad H4D-50 and 120mm macro and Bowens Gemini Pro 500w monoblocs

Quentin

Professional · « **Reply #19 on:** September 16, 2011, 05:06:13 pm »

Quote from: Quentin on September 15, 2011, 09:11:45 am

Gemini Pros are good for most studio work:

They will do fast flash durations but this shot below:

is pushing the boundaries

Both shots with Hasselblad H4D-50 and 120mm macro and Bowens Gemini Pro 500w monoblocs

Quentin

Can't see your sample shots?

Author Topic: Lighting flash duration question (Read 16856 times)