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Author Topic: Using T/S lens for stitched images  (Read 8990 times)

Mike Guilbault

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Using T/S lens for stitched images
« on: September 08, 2011, 07:34:58 am »

I have an older Nikkor 85mm PC lens that needs some repair so I haven't tried this yet.  I'm curious about using this style of lens for shooting stitched images, shifting the lens for three images.  I understand that this method is great for parallax, but do you get any light fall-off or lower resolution in the corners using this method?
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Mike Guilbault

Bart_van_der_Wolf

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Re: Using T/S lens for stitched images
« Reply #1 on: September 08, 2011, 11:01:24 am »

I have an older Nikkor 85mm PC lens that needs some repair so I haven't tried this yet.  I'm curious about using this style of lens for shooting stitched images, shifting the lens for three images.  I understand that this method is great for parallax, but do you get any light fall-off or lower resolution in the corners using this method?

Hi Mike,

Yes, by shifting you are using the image circle that the lens produces, so resolution and vignetting will be an issue nearer to its edges. Also, be aware that to avoid foreground parallax you should move the camera body in the opposite direction between 'tiles' to make sure that the entrance pupil of the lens stays stationary. If the foreground is not showing enough specific detail, one may get away with just shifting the lens (and let the stitching software blur over the seams with foreground differences).

Cheers,
Bart
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torger

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Re: Using T/S lens for stitched images
« Reply #2 on: September 08, 2011, 11:06:42 am »

Yes you'll get light fall-off and lower resolution in the corners, since you get closer to the image circle borders. How bad this will be depends on the lens quality. Unfortunately I don't know how sharp the 85mm is, but I know Canon's old 90mm is really sharp - those longer focal lengths are usually a bit sharper than the wider angle T/S lenses.

If your alternative is to turn a panorama head and stitch three images with an unshifted lens you will indeed get rid of the resolution loss and fall-off *per image*, but when you stitch them together and make rectilinear projection out of them (to get the same projection as when using one rectilinear lens with shifting) the images on the side will have to be stretched quite a lot so you will in practice get lower resolution anyway. If you however make a cylindrical projection (usually works very well in landscape, sucks in architecture) there is very little stretch and then you will get better resolution with the panorama head method.

In short, shifting and stitching is better when you need rectilinear projection, but if you can do with cylindrical projection a panorama head is better.

Note that you'll probably want to use your camera in portrait mode when stitching horizontally to get as much resolution as possible (same for panorama of course). The problem that lenses rarely have tripod collars means that you'll need to make sure that the camera body is shifted the corresponding amount in the opposite direction so that the lens stands still. Usually when doing this shifting around there is some small error so you'll need a panorama stitcher to fit the images together, it is rarely as perfect so you can manually fit the images together.
« Last Edit: September 08, 2011, 11:14:11 am by torger »
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Kirk Gittings

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Re: Using T/S lens for stitched images
« Reply #3 on: September 08, 2011, 11:10:12 am »

While its true that you need to shift the body to avoid parallax, modern stitching programs make this effort unnecessary IME. I use the current Canon T/S lenses, 90, 45 and 24 for my business and do numerous simple flat stitches weekly without shifting the body. CS5 has 0 problems stitching these images. I haven't bothered shifting the body for years now.
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torger

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Re: Using T/S lens for stitched images
« Reply #4 on: September 08, 2011, 11:21:07 am »

While its true that you need to shift the body to avoid parallax, modern stitching programs make this effort unnecessary IME. I use the current Canon T/S lenses, 90, 45 and 24 for my business and do numerous simple flat stitches weekly without shifting the body. CS5 has 0 problems stitching these images. I haven't bothered shifting the body for years now.

It depends on how close objects you have. I recently made a test with a 24mm T/S, having an object (a table leg) 3 meters from the camera. When not compensating with moving the camera there was stitching error. The error on the table leg corresponded to about ~4mm, which was ~5 pixels in the image, but with a straight line like that it was quite visible. I took the same image again with compensation, and then stitching worked. So I'd say that for indoor scenes compensating the body is often required, while outdoor landscapes with some distance to the closest object it is rarely necessary.
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Kirk Gittings

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Re: Using T/S lens for stitched images
« Reply #5 on: September 08, 2011, 11:34:42 am »

I make my living shooting architecture and interiors. I have not experienced that and nearly always have something closer than 3 meters to the camera in interiors and oftentimes in exteriors also.
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torger

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Re: Using T/S lens for stitched images
« Reply #6 on: September 08, 2011, 12:32:11 pm »

I make my living shooting architecture and interiors. I have not experienced that and nearly always have something closer than 3 meters to the camera in interiors and oftentimes in exteriors also.

It probably varies quite much how good the panorama stitchers are at hiding parallax errors. If the stitcher is smart it avoids making a diagonal stitch over a table leg with parallax error, which I got in this particular case. Nearly always there's a path one can stitch along which puts parallax errors in some low contrast area, one must hope that the sticher finds that path. I used Hugin, and I would guess it is not as good as the commercial tools on stitching. Hugin is also limited to use narrow seams which is a drawback in this case, wider blends are often better to hide parallax error in difficult areas. That there actually is a parallax error is verifyable by mathematics, so it is a matter if one dares to trust the stitcher being able to work around it or not, which is a personal choice. With the tools I have currently, I personally prefer to provide parallax free input to the stitcher.

For Nikon PC-E lenses there is this third-party accessory:

http://www.agnos.it/prodotti.htm?v_lingua=ENG&v_iss_web=0000000011090818341006452788&v_categ_lista=P0000-P0025&v_cod_art_scheda=JMBS00

That is a tripod-collar for the lens. I'm not sure if the PC-E lens would like to have a full-sized body hanging on it though...
« Last Edit: September 08, 2011, 12:37:13 pm by torger »
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kers

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Re: Using T/S lens for stitched images
« Reply #7 on: September 08, 2011, 12:33:53 pm »

I have the newer PC version wich is almost the same but has a nanocoating...
The 85mm pc is very usefull for stitching- it is about the best lens Nikon has made- no distortion- no light falloff or corner unsharpness if you use d8 -d11
Give it a try.

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MrSmith

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Re: Using T/S lens for stitched images
« Reply #8 on: September 08, 2011, 04:31:28 pm »

i prefer to spend the time shifting the opposite way when stitching than deal with any problems later as i find it saves time. i use the canon TS-E lenses and a quick release plate with mm/cm graduations and a center line on the plate so it's easy to move the camera body the same amount as the lens (in the opposite direction), i had a few issues with stitching in cs5 with things like wine glasses in the foreground of restaurant interiors, for landscapes i'm less likely to move the camera if there is nothing close to the camera.
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Kirk Gittings

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Re: Using T/S lens for stitched images
« Reply #9 on: September 08, 2011, 05:12:34 pm »

i prefer to spend the time shifting the opposite way when stitching than deal with any problems later as i find it saves time. i use the canon TS-E lenses and a quick release plate with mm/cm graduations and a center line on the plate so it's easy to move the camera body the same amount as the lens (in the opposite direction), i had a few issues with stitching in cs5 with things like wine glasses in the foreground of restaurant interiors, for landscapes i'm less likely to move the camera if there is nothing close to the camera.

I have the same accessory and haven't used it since buying CS4..........
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JimAscher

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Re: Using T/S lens for stitched images
« Reply #10 on: September 08, 2011, 06:02:45 pm »

Hi Mike,

Yes, by shifting you are using the image circle that the lens produces, so resolution and vignetting will be an issue nearer to its edges. Also, be aware that to avoid foreground parallax you should move the camera body in the opposite direction between 'tiles' to make sure that the entrance pupil of the lens stays stationary. If the foreground is not showing enough specific detail, one may get away with just shifting the lens (and let the stitching software blur over the seams with foreground differences).

Cheers,
Bart

The advantage, for example in my case, of using a 35mm film lens with a micro4/3 camera is that the lens image circle is quite a bit larger than the camera's sensor, and vignetting and falling off of resolution is less of a problem.
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Mike Guilbault

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Re: Using T/S lens for stitched images
« Reply #11 on: September 08, 2011, 11:24:54 pm »

Great info.  Thanks.  Now I just have to get it fixed!
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Mike Guilbault

haefnerphoto

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Re: Using T/S lens for stitched images
« Reply #12 on: September 22, 2011, 10:35:54 pm »

I've been using this product, http://www.hartblei.de/en/canon-tse-collar.htm, lately.  It works really well and I see no adverse consequences from moving the camera with the lenses' shift knob.  While I have no real issues with Photoshop's Photomerge capabilities it does become problematic if I want to bring in part of a capture later.  Because PS distorts the images to line up, unmerged captures won't line up pixel for pixel.  I've found the Canon 24 T/S to be the sharpest dslr lens I have ever used.  Jim
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torger

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Re: Using T/S lens for stitched images
« Reply #13 on: September 23, 2011, 03:42:24 am »

I've been using this product, http://www.hartblei.de/en/canon-tse-collar.htm, lately.  It works really well and I see no adverse consequences from moving the camera with the lenses' shift knob.

Oh, there's a tripod collar for Canon TS-E now, great I did not know that. Put in basket! :-)
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Bart_van_der_Wolf

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Re: Using T/S lens for stitched images
« Reply #14 on: September 23, 2011, 05:48:44 am »

While I have no real issues with Photoshop's Photomerge capabilities it does become problematic if I want to bring in part of a capture later.  Because PS distorts the images to line up, unmerged captures won't line up pixel for pixel.

Hi Jim,

When stitching T/S lens shifted images (assuming entrance pupil of the lens was kept stationary!), there is no need to use Photomerge, a Photoshop canvas enlargement and simple shifting will produce an almost perfect (better than 0.5 pixel) aligned stitch.

Cheers,
Bart
« Last Edit: September 23, 2011, 08:23:54 am by BartvanderWolf »
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haefnerphoto

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Re: Using T/S lens for stitched images
« Reply #15 on: September 23, 2011, 07:28:43 am »

Hi Jim,

When stitching T/S lens shifted images (assuming entrance pupil of the lens was kepth stationary!), there is no need to use Photomerge, a Photoshop canvas enlargement and simple shifting will produce an almost perfect (better than 0.5 pixel) aligned stitch.

Cheers,
Bart

That's why I use the collar, I only use Photomerge if I don't use it.
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langier

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Re: Using T/S lens for stitched images
« Reply #16 on: March 23, 2012, 04:24:30 pm »

Used my 85 PC since film days and it works just fine for stitching. Shoot left-center-right or vise-versa and they alight just fine and easily in PS.

Right now, I'm shooting several silver buckles in my studio with this lens.

Since 85 isn't quite long enough at times, I used to use it with my TC 14a and TC-201. It worked fine and was sharp enough. However, with the TC-E converters, the converter needs to be modified to use the PC lens.
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JeffKohn

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Re: Using T/S lens for stitched images
« Reply #17 on: April 11, 2012, 11:31:03 pm »

Hi Jim,

When stitching T/S lens shifted images (assuming entrance pupil of the lens was kept stationary!), there is no need to use Photomerge, a Photoshop canvas enlargement and simple shifting will produce an almost perfect (better than 0.5 pixel) aligned stitch.
True but I found that the "Reposition Images Only" option in Photomerge accomplishes the same thing and is quicker/easier than doing it manually. No warping or interpolating occurs with this option, just alignment and masking. So it's still a flat stitch, and even if there's a bit of parallax the masking will usually take care of it.

As to the 85 PC Nikkor, I have the older non "-E" version and it's excellent for this type of stitching. Sharpness, light falloff, and distortion are all excellent even when fully shifted  (the same cannot really be said for the 24 PC-E).
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Tony Jay

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Re: Using T/S lens for stitched images
« Reply #18 on: April 12, 2012, 12:08:44 am »

Oh, there's a tripod collar for Canon TS-E now, great I did not know that. Put in basket! ... :-)

First time I have heard about this but it looks like a great product.

I've been using this product, http://www.hartblei.de/en/canon-tse-collar.htm, lately.  ...  I've found the Canon 24 T/S to be the sharpest dslr lens I have ever used.  Jim

thanks for the heads up.

Regards

Tony Jay
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Mike Guilbault

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Re: Using T/S lens for stitched images
« Reply #19 on: April 12, 2012, 08:28:35 am »

We'll I've finally got my 85PC back from repairs (it didn't take long for the repair, just took me a while to get it in). The focus collar was a little bent but mostly needed a cleaning and cost me less than $150.  I was pleased.  I'll be getting out in the next few weeks to try it out on panos.  Nice to hear that this older non "E" version works well.
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