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Author Topic: Help needed, choosing printer for my business !  (Read 7764 times)

george clooney

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Help needed, choosing printer for my business !
« on: September 04, 2011, 10:59:34 am »

Hello all,

this is my first time so be gentle !

My partner and I are a young couple setting up a kids photography business in Australia we have been working for someone else for a number of years but are deciding to do it ourselves now. We need a printer that is going to turnover a large number of prints a week roughly 1560 10x8 prints, 240 14x11 prints and 120 6x4 prints. Due to this high volume of work the most important factors for us are a) its running costs are low b) its print speed is fast c) either its built to withstand the amount of work or its cheap enough to replace over time. Print quality is important to a certain extent but our customers will not be inspecting each print with a magnifying glass ! ease of use is also important.

We are starting off small so we obviously dont want to be spending 10's of thousands on a top of the range machine just yet. A suggestion was made to us to start off with say 3 or more cheaper printers which print borderless printing to slash printing time and save on labour time and costs for cutting, good idea ?.

Anyway I have been looking at a range of models and ill use the epson range as an example - starting at the cheaper r2880 up to the 3880 and then the pricier 4900. Im open to suggestions for any other brand by the way.

So any suggestions ? which printer best suits my needs Epson, Canon, HP ? do I keep costs low to start and go for the cheaper models, i could afford a few of them and they would fit nicely in my office space. Or would i actually make my money back quite quickly on ink if I invested in a printer such as the 4900 ? could i churn out the same volume of work in equal time with just 1 or 2 of these larger printers compared to say 3 or more cheaper models, are they generally faster ?

I was also told you can add continuous ink cartridges to save costs and hassle, has anyone had any experience with these ?

any help would be much appreciated,

thanks George
« Last Edit: September 08, 2011, 08:35:43 pm by george clooney »
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neile

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Re: Help needed, choosing printer for my business !
« Reply #1 on: September 04, 2011, 11:17:39 am »

Given the sizes you're looking at I would make sure to get a printer that has a cassette. Then you can load it with 8.5x11" paper and print 8x10 and 2-up 4x6" prints without having to get up from the computer to feed paper.

Don't be spooked by the cost of ink cartridges. Paper is where you'll spend all your money, not ink. The latest generation printers sip ink, particularly if you step up from the r2880/canon 9500 to the printers that take larger ink cartridges.

I'm very curious to see what others have to say, since I don't print anywhere near that volume, but it's really tempting to suggest you look at the Canon PIXMA Pro 9000 Mark II. It has dye inks for colour that gives you serious pop on glossy paper. After mail in rebate it'll cost you $149.95. Yes, you read that right. $149.95.

You could pick up two more at that price off Craigslist from people who got it along with a camera due to the rebates, and have a little factory set up in your office, with each printer set up with paper for the different sizes. Then buy Kirkland Signature Glossy Photo Paper from Costco and you'll have cheap, good looking, prints all day long.

If you wanted higher longevity you could do the PIXMA Pro 9500 Mark II that rings up at $249.95 after mail in rebate. Same deal, pick two more up off Craigslist for a similar price.

The only thing I don't know about these printers is how stingy they are with ink.

Neil
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Ernst Dinkla

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Re: Help needed, choosing printer for my business !
« Reply #2 on: September 04, 2011, 11:43:04 am »

IMHO your main problem will be cutting your prints to the requested sizes in an economic way. The printer request can be solved in more ways.

I actually think that fast cutting to common sizes is something a bit underestimated in this forum. (Dry) minilabs are at the other end of the spectrum considering volume and price but even the amount you need is not solved with some desktop printers and borderless printing.

met vriendelijke groeten, Ernst

Try: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Wide_Inkjet_Printers/



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Alan Goldhammer

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Re: Help needed, choosing printer for my business !
« Reply #3 on: September 04, 2011, 01:15:34 pm »

I would echo Ernst's concern about cutting prints to a standard size.  I don't think you want to go down that road.  I've owned an Epson 2880 and now have a 3880.  3880 is a much more rock solid printer and I would opt for that rather than the 2880.  You will find yourself changing inks in the 2880 quite often.  3880 can take 4x6 paper in the top feeder which is convenient.  If you are sticking with Epson paper you can also use the top feeder for Epson Premium Luster and I think the Glossy as well (the Glossy does come in 11x14 size).  You don't want to have to feed paper in page by page as with some more expensive heavier papers; that would be a deal breaker.  I just checked my manual and the auto feeder will take 20 sheets at a time.  I'm unsure if the 4990 can take 4x6 paper.  Given this, 3 3880 printers might be all you need and given Epson's pricing you are really only paying for the ink.  I have no experience with Canon or HP and cannot comment on their lines.
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neile

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Re: Help needed, choosing printer for my business !
« Reply #4 on: September 04, 2011, 01:44:50 pm »

Ernst does raise a very good concern about cutting. The 4x6s will chew a ton of time even if all you are doing is splitting an 8.5x11" sheet of paper in half.

Have you thought about outsourcing this? If you have a Costco nearby you may find it way more time and cost effective to make a daily trip, shove an SD card into their kiosk, select "print one of everything" and then the next morning pick up the prints. They are dirt cheap, require zero machine maintenance on your part, and did I mention they're cheap? Yes, you can upload via the web as well, but for the number of images you're talking about that might be too time consuming compared to the bulk "print everything" option at the in-store Kiosk. They also print at exactly the sizes you want, with no need to cut on your end. If you name your files appropriately (with the job name in them) they even back-print the filename on the images so it'll make it a snap to sort them for your customers when you get the images back. Add in a few nice bags from www.clearbags.com for packaging and... done!

Neil
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Neil Enns
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neile

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Re: Help needed, choosing printer for my business !
« Reply #5 on: September 04, 2011, 01:52:37 pm »

Ok, after doing the cost calculations, I take back my suggestion on outsourcing. Print your 8x10s on 8.5x11" paper with a border. Buy 4x6" paper and make sure the printers you buy can handle it. The Canons I mentioned in my original post claim to do 4x6" borderless which is perfect.

4x6" paper will cost you $0.05 per image ($14.99 for 300 sheets). 11x14" will cost you $0.54 per image ($26.99 for 50 sheets). I don't have the pricing handy for the 8.5x11" gossy paper, but you get the idea :) This is all pricing based on Costco's photo glossy paper. Chances are given the volume you do you could work with a paper supplier like Shades of Paper to get similar paper for less since you will clearly be going through a LOT of it.

Neil
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Wayne Fox

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Re: Help needed, choosing printer for my business !
« Reply #6 on: September 05, 2011, 12:33:53 am »

well, I'd like to respond to this, because anyone doing those kinds of numbers is crazy to use inkjet.  But based on the  users name, 1st post, and the questions (1500 8x10's a week? I made a career in that very business and that number in todays market is a real stretch.)

so before going on, I'll just say it ... this really smells like a troll ....
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KenBabcock

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Re: Help needed, choosing printer for my business !
« Reply #7 on: September 05, 2011, 01:24:15 am »

You're opening a new photography business shooting kids and you plan on producing over 1800 prints a week?  Where did you pull that number from? 

Either your expectations are a little high and you'll be brought back down to reality a week after you open or you know something the rest of us don't.  I mean, you've never printed before yet you're sure you'll be printing 1800 prints a week?  ::)
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Ken Doo

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Re: Help needed, choosing printer for my business !
« Reply #8 on: September 05, 2011, 04:27:27 pm »

I agree with Wayne.

Inkjet (28**/38**/4900/79**/9***) is ideal for lower volumes, high quality fine art, canvas, etc.

With the suggested volume, I'd look at Noritsu---D701 or M300 (dry minilabs)
« Last Edit: September 06, 2011, 09:28:42 am by kdphotography »
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Luca Ragogna

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Re: Help needed, choosing printer for my business !
« Reply #9 on: September 06, 2011, 12:39:02 am »

I don't know what you guys are taking about. If George Clooney opens a portrait studio in the mall every mom will be lined up for photos. I think those numbers are pretty conservative.
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Ernst Dinkla

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Re: Help needed, choosing printer for my business !
« Reply #10 on: September 06, 2011, 02:55:44 am »

ROTFL

But he would not worry about the purchase of a dry minilab either, inkjet technology that can handle the volume easily.


met vriendelijke groeten, Ernst

Try: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Wide_Inkjet_Printers/
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KenBabcock

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Re: Help needed, choosing printer for my business !
« Reply #11 on: September 06, 2011, 05:44:09 pm »

I don't know what you guys are taking about. If George Clooney opens a portrait studio in the mall every mom will be lined up for photos. I think those numbers are pretty conservative.

Really?  If it were that easy don't ya think the rest of us here would have already done it?

I'll be 36 in less than two weeks.  Our major mall in my city opened just before the day I was born.  I've lived here my entire life.  I have never seen one photographer or any kind of photo studio in our large mall.... ever!  I think someone would have done it by now if "every mom would be lined up for photos".  

Mom's have enough photos of their children.  School photos, soccer photos, hockey photos.... why would they want more?  Photography is a hard business to be in.  Not everyone needs photos.  Everyone needs a haircut, everyone needs their car fixed, but not everyone needs more photos of their kids to add to their collection.

If you think those print numbers are conservative, tell ya what, you open a kids portrait studio and I'll do all your printing for half price!   ;D
« Last Edit: September 06, 2011, 05:45:42 pm by KenBabcock »
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neile

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Re: Help needed, choosing printer for my business !
« Reply #12 on: September 06, 2011, 05:45:13 pm »

Really?  If it were that easy don't ya think the rest of us here would have already done it?

I think the key point here is we are not George Clooney. If George Clooney opened a studio, it'd be inundated.

Neil
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Neil Enns
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KenBabcock

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Re: Help needed, choosing printer for my business !
« Reply #13 on: September 06, 2011, 05:47:24 pm »

LOL.  I think if George Clooney opened a portrait studio he wouldn't be worried about the price of printers.
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george clooney

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Re: Help needed, choosing printer for my business !
« Reply #14 on: September 08, 2011, 07:52:28 pm »

sorry everyone, i didn't realise i had so many replies, haven't quite figured this forum out yet. Thank you so much there is some great advice there and a lot for me to consider at this early stage of planning. The dry minilabs are something we were hoping to progress to and that Noritsu looks like a great compact machine but we wanted to keep things cheap and simple to start with if possible. However do you think it would pay to invest in such a machine from the start due to the volume of work we aim to be producing? will the initial cost be paid back quite quickly ?

You're opening a new photography business shooting kids and you plan on producing over 1800 prints a week?  Where did you pull that number from? 

Either your expectations are a little high and you'll be brought back down to reality a week after you open or you know something the rest of us don't.  I mean, you've never printed before yet you're sure you'll be printing 1800 prints a week?  ::)


I should probably point out i am starting up this business in Australia. We have been working for another company doing this for 3 years. We set up in different shopping centres each week and consistently pull in around 150 customers week in week out and the company would print around 15 photos per pack (customer). Not all photos are sold because there's no obligation to buy but a large percentage were and a lot of money was made !!!! we are starting smaller and aim to make numbers more manageble to start.

well, I'd like to respond to this, because anyone doing those kinds of numbers is crazy to use inkjet.  But based on the  users name, 1st post, and the questions (1500 8x10's a week? I made a career in that very business and that number in todays market is a real stretch.)

so before going on, I'll just say it ... this really smells like a troll ....


Your right on one thing, my names not George Clooney, but im not a troll. There are companies going around shopping centre's in Australia that are churning out these numbers every week. The shopping centre kids studio is a lucrative industry and has been for a while in Australia and many other countries I know, I'd be really surprised if there isn't something similar in your country.
Quote from: KenBabcock

link=topic=57515.msg465614#msg465614 date=1315345449
Really?  If it were that easy don't ya think the rest of us here would have already done it?

I'll be 36 in less than two weeks.  Our major mall in my city opened just before the day I was born.  I've lived here my entire life.  I have never seen one photographer or any kind of photo studio in our large mall.... ever!  I think someone would have done it by now if "every mom would be lined up for photos". 

Mom's have enough photos of their children.  School photos, soccer photos, hockey photos.... why would they want more?  Photography is a hard business to be in.  Not everyone needs photos.  Everyone needs a haircut, everyone needs their car fixed, but not everyone needs more photos of their kids to add to their collection.

If you think those print numbers are conservative, tell ya what, you open a kids portrait studio and I'll do all your printing for half price!   ;D

Where do you live? here is a list of just a few companies going around malls in Australia - Tiny treasure, Little Masterpiece, Viva, Expression Sessions, Pixie they have been doing it for years. Not only do they make these numbers each week some companies have up to 9 studios going around the country, you do the math !. To be honest quantity can sometimes out weigh quality depending on the company but they all sell, sell, sell. We are not associating our company with these ones, we have a different approach to photography (less fancy dress !!!) but never the less having worked for one of them for so many years I know first hand the volume of photos they sell and it is huge, hence why i am setting up my own business. Working with kids is not easy and neither will be setting up a business, so I probably would not go down this route if I did not see the potential !
« Last Edit: September 08, 2011, 10:43:45 pm by george clooney »
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Wayne Fox

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Re: Help needed, choosing printer for my business !
« Reply #15 on: September 09, 2011, 01:35:59 am »

Well, you sound a little less like a troll, but I'm not totally convinced.  This isn't your typical forum and I don't think anyone here appreciates fake handles like the one you chose.  It certainly won't help you get responses (unless you really are a troll and don't care about the quality of those responses).  I suggest you change it (it might even be against the forum policies you agreed to).

Since you do sound a little more legit and since you are treading down a path which is similar to where I"ve come from, I throw you some thoughts. As one who owned and operated 120 children's studios across the US until I sold out in 2005 at well over a million kids per year and an average of 10 sheets per kid, we tried it all.  Inkjet (no go especially then), dye sub and wet (silver hailde processing).  I'm not sure what you mean as "dry lab" because the only thing I'm aware of using a name like that is a system by Noritsu that is a glorified Epson printer (literally using their heads and licensing their technology) built for volume but costing 10 times more.

Currently in the US, it will cost you about .90 to make an inkjet print on an Epson 4900, a little less on a 7900 if you use 700ml cartridges, assuming you can negotiate a really good paper and ink deal with your supplier..  This is without waste and with those volumes the main waste will be the paper you have to cut out between each 8x10 to end up with a borderless print.  Printing that many prints borderless will lead to some issues, (I have one customer now who just switched to 4900s doing a very similar business) because of the overspray, but clogs will be minimal because of the high usage.  But with waste factors you'll probably end up between .85 to 1.00 per 8x10.  A recent thread here on LuLa implied that Epson paper in your country is 300% higher, which means it might be costing you much more to make a print.

On the other hand, using Fuji or Kodak silver halide paper on a Noritsu, I can make that same 8x10 for between .18 to .22, and with enough volume less because I can probably negotiate a special deal with the supplier (my cost on 8x10's when I sold out was more in the .12-13 range but silver prices have pushed that up since then).

Since you can develop a closed loop system (you control all variables from shooting to output) you can develop a system to crank prints through. You can probably do it in a way that the Noritsu will sort them for you, so faster packaging, so you'll save labor as well.  One Noritsu can produce 100's of 8x10's per hour, far faster than any inkjet.  You can also use multiple size papers so one machine can handle different print sizes.

so if the savings in Australia is anything similar, run the numbers.  At just 1500 8x10s a week (this doesn't even factor in all you would save on all the larger prints)  you would save approximately $1200 per week.  You may have to start with inkjet because cost of entry is much cheaper, but if you leased a Noritsu on a 5 year lease that could do the 10x8's and 11x14's, you would probably pay about $1200 to $1500 a month for the lease, meaning you would might add as much as $3600 a month to your margins. (this is all based on US figures, no clue what the deal is in your country ... which means there could be some totally wild factor like an exorbitant government tax on photo processing)  Add a 7900 to crank out the 16x20's (at the numbers your talking you could easily justify the 24" noritsu with is about a $130,000 machine). 

But running the math is pretty simple, just find out what your costs are.  All steps in creating a successful business model.

I will say just because a bunch of guys are doing it, it might not be as easy or profitable as you think ... sounds like it might be a pretty competitive business to break in to.

Good luck ...

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Czornyj

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Re: Help needed, choosing printer for my business !
« Reply #16 on: September 09, 2011, 03:59:31 am »

I was using Epson SP7880, and now I use Canon iPF6350 to make prints for quality-obsessed wedding photographers. Depending on size, I print strips of 2,3,4,6 or 8 photos on 24" rolls, and then cut it using electric paper cutter - it's not a big problem to make 1800 prints a week in this way, also not very convenient, but feasible.

I agree that in a long run a Noritsu mini lab is the best solution, but it's expansive and not that easy to maintain, so it only has sense when you're really printing a lot already. A water-based pigment inkjet printer might be good enough for the beginning. And you can also offer large format prints and stretched canvas prints as an option.
« Last Edit: September 09, 2011, 04:57:56 am by Czornyj »
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george clooney

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Re: Help needed, choosing printer for my business !
« Reply #17 on: September 09, 2011, 09:05:31 am »

thank you both for your help,

Wayne that's some sound advice and I hope i can convince you i'm really not a troll, I'm using a different user name because I will become a direct competitor with my old boss and I want to remain anonymous for now. Ok George Clooney was not the best idea but it did attract a lot of attention ! It is indeed a competitive business and it will take a lot of hard work to get to where we want to be, but if we get it right we know from our experience we are capable of pulling in those big numbers each week and we need to be prepared with the right printer if this happens.

We are at a very early stage of research and we are not exactly experts on printers so we do need as much help as we can get. We are currently traveling China so have not had the chance to seek expert advice as yet, only here on the web so excuse us if we sound a little lost at times.

Yes Wayne the Noritsu mini lab was something someone suggested on this thread, it looks like a great machine and I think I agree with you Czornyj this could be right for us in the future. But to err the side of caution to start with i think we need to keep costs down incase things don't work out, also if that machine decides not to work one day we are screwed where as if we had 3 or more smaller machines we can still keep things going.

With the risk of sounding like idiots, heres what we are confused about. The specs for the Epson 3880 state that it prints borderless printing on the following cut-sheet sizes:
4" x 6", 5" x 7", 8" x 10", 11" x 14", 16" x 20", 17" x 22" . So our we right in saying we need not do any cutting at all for our 6x4, 8x10 and 11x14 prints ? that's what it says to me but I am getting a little confused with what people are saying.

Do machines like the Noritsu print borderless ?

Also.....
The speed of the 3880 for a 10x 8 print is 2:03 to 7:47, 
The 4900 does 8" x 10" prints from 0:59 sec to 2:26    
The Noritsu d701 prints 38 10x8 per hour thats 1.57 minutes per print, slower then the 4900 ?? have I go this right, how can this be ? why is it then considered better for printing larger volumes of work ?








« Last Edit: September 09, 2011, 09:23:12 am by george clooney »
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Ernst Dinkla

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Re: Help needed, choosing printer for my business !
« Reply #18 on: September 09, 2011, 09:38:46 am »


If my memory is correct today's dry minilabs do 1500  4x6's an hour or an equivalent 22 M2 an hour, in my book that would be 500 8x10's an hour. Cut at all edges and possibly with a job number + address label added. I am not in that business but I imagine it is like that. The fastest wide format inkjets are the Canon iPFx300 category and they make about 6 M2 an hour from the roll if my memory serves me correctly. You still have to cut that output, make sure that all you do in that envelope go to the right customer etc. Any desktop sheet model inkjet printer slows down considerably compared to roll feeding units. You will find some office inkjet sheet models that are faster but their photo quality is not what you want.


met vriendelijke groeten, Ernst

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Alan Goldhammer

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Re: Help needed, choosing printer for my business !
« Reply #19 on: September 09, 2011, 09:50:33 am »

Also.....
The speed of the 3880 for a 10x 8 print is 2:03 to 7:47, 
The 4900 does 8" x 10" prints from 0:59 sec to 2:26    
The Noritsu d701 prints 38 10x8 per hour thats 1.57 minutes per print, slower then the 4900 ?? have I go this right, how can this be ? why is it then considered better for printing larger volumes of work ?
I can only speak for the 3880 which I have.  You get faster print speed by enabling bi-directional printing (the high speed selection) and this really doesn't affect the quality at all.  You can also try printing at 1440 dpi on gloss paper as opposed to 2880 which will also have an impact but you will have to judge for yourself about the quality of the image.  I don't know why the 4900 specifications should be so markedly different in terms of print speed.
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