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Author Topic: NEC Spectraview 301 problems  (Read 8700 times)

djoy

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NEC Spectraview 301 problems
« on: August 31, 2011, 07:00:42 pm »

I've just upgraded to this monitor, and it's just not going well at all, I can't figure out what's going wrong, but it's virtually unusable as is. I'm hoping someone else may have some experience of this screen which may highlight where the issue is for me.

My old monitor was a very nice Sony P234b IPS panel screen, served me well, but it's past its best and badly ghosting, so it had to be replaced. I splashed out on an NEC Spectraview 301, huge investment for a monitor, thinking it would be the pinnacle of displays and knock my old screen into next week. I can't even get it profiled properly.

I'm no stranger to calibrating and profiling my screen, been doing it for many many years, and I always got very good results from my old screen, using i1Match and either an EyeOne Display or EyeOne Pro (I have both).

When I turn on the new screen, it shows the logo, and then changes the calibration several times, quite visibly. It seems to be different every time I turn it on, and this is *after* calibration and profiling. Sometimes the colours are right, next time I use the computer, they're all wrong, there's no consistency. Colours are just wrong in some apps, badly wrong, very very garish. When you've been looking at apps for years on a calibrated monitor, you know when something suddenly changes and doesn't look right. For example, the cover art in iTunes, which normally looks fine, is gruesomely over saturated. Yet another time, it will just fine just as it should.

I've been using the latest Spectraview Profiler (4.1.28) and the EyeOne Pro spectro. I have uninstalled i1Match. I've been doing "hardware" calibration (what's the point of spending all this money for that function if you're not going to use it?). I'm connected via DisplayPort connector.

Has anyone had any similar issues? Is this just my expectations not being realistic? If I'm using the hardware based calibration (monitor LUTs) will the colours only be correct in colour-managed applications? I had expected the opposite.

Any info appreciated.
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Pat Herold

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Re: NEC Spectraview 301 problems
« Reply #1 on: August 31, 2011, 07:49:45 pm »

These are good displays.  You should not be getting the results you are seeing under normal circumstances.  Here are a few things to look at:
-  Turn off "Auto Luminance" if you have it on (Preferences > Display)
-  Turn ON "Confirm display calibration status" (Preferences > Interface) just to make sure there aren't settings getting changed from one time to the next.

It's particularly concerning that you say the display looks different each time you turn it on.

What do you get at the Color Tracking tab in SpectraView II?
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Mark D Segal

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Re: NEC Spectraview 301 problems
« Reply #2 on: August 31, 2011, 08:39:28 pm »

Just in case the problem is related to Apple's DisplayPort technology, I suggest you connect the monitor using DVI to DVI and test it like that over several days with the different applications that have been producing different and seemingly wrong results. If the monitor is well-behaved with DVI, then your problem would seem to be isolated. If it isn't - well then the problem would not yet have been isolated. There's no harm using it with DVI at this time, because DisplayPort is only really needed to support 10-bit rendition, but because MAC OSX doesn't support 10-bit no matter what display or cable you use, you lose nothing trying the DVI route. There's no way I can say this is the problem, hence my suggestion to test it. I have had big trouble with mini-DisplayPort to DisplayPort using my NEC PA271 with a MacPro, and am therefore connected with DVI.
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Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
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Czornyj

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Re: NEC Spectraview 301 problems
« Reply #3 on: September 01, 2011, 04:46:58 am »

PA301W is a (very)wide gamut display - so it needs a colormanaged application to display colors correctly. When you sometimes see oversaturated colors it's a sign that application's CMM stopped converting colors to the color space defined in the ICC profile selected in OSX System Preferences. It's not displays fault, it's only a software issue.
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Marcin Kałuża | [URL=http://zarzadzaniebarwa

Mark D Segal

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Re: NEC Spectraview 301 problems
« Reply #4 on: September 01, 2011, 08:39:53 am »

 I think Czornyj is correct; that said, applications such as Photoshop and Lightroom clearly are colour-management aware, and if you are calibrating and profiling with Spectraview, that should also ensure a properly colour-managed set-up. This is why my mind drifts back to hardware issues. Hence, I would add to my previous reply: you didn't mention what computer and video card the PA301 is connected to. Are you certain that your video card and OS supports this display?
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Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
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djoy

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Re: NEC Spectraview 301 problems
« Reply #5 on: September 01, 2011, 10:37:09 am »

I'll answer as many queries as I can:

Pherold: I'm in the UK, so I am using Spectraview Profiler, (rebadged basiccolor), not Spectraview II, which I do not have access to.

Mark DS: I initially tried using DVI and the problem was the same, I switched to DisplayPort because the cable I had was longer and more convenient. :) It's the shipped NEC cable, with the Monoprice converter. The computer is a Mac Pro 2008 (3,1) with a Radeon 4870. And yeah, I was disappointed about the 10bit thing too :(

Czornyj: Ordinarily I would agree with that, but it's a bit of a grey area to me with this particular monitor with the LUTs in the monitor.

If it was consistent, I would understand, but it isn't. Sometimes the colour looks right (in ANY app), sometimes it does not. Basically, things look OK in Lightroom or Photoshop, not so in Firefox, and yes I have enabled the colour management and set it to assume sRGB for untagged images in the browser options. Having been accustomed to using a profiled screen for many years, you know when something isn't right, it's not merely a question my perceiving the extra capability of the newer screen. Admittedly not a graphics app, but the most immediately obvious candidate is iTunes, the coverflow artwork is very badly oversaturated, but then the other day it was perfect again, just like on my old monitor, without my having changed anything.

I kind of had an expectation that because this high end monitor has the LUTs in the monitor, the colour would look right with ANY app because the conversion is taking place on the basic video output, as opposed to in the OS/app. Maybe that expectation was wrong.

What is a grey area to me is whether this "hardware" calibration requires a software profile in order to work, and which option I should choose from the software and what the real differences are between them. With the Spectraview Profiler software, the calibration/profiling options are :

  • Hardware
  • Hardware and Software
  • Software
  • No Calibration (profile only)

I've tried both option one and two, with no difference. Although I haven't tried it (yet) I have no doubt that if I were to profile this monitor with my old methods (i1Match, equivalent to option 3 I guess) it would be fine, but I balk at the idea of having spent all this money on a high end monitor with in-built hardware 14-bit 3D LUTs only to not use them... :-\

I'm sure it's something I'm doing or not doing, or an incompatibility somewhere, I don't think the hardware is faulty, I just can't seem to get a handle on where the problem is.

Thanks for you replies.
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djoy

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Re: NEC Spectraview 301 problems
« Reply #6 on: September 01, 2011, 10:39:46 am »

As extra info, when I perform a validation, I usually get an average DeltaE of <1, usually 0.5-0.7, but I always get a spike somewhere in the range, worst DeltaE was 3.5!
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Mark D Segal

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Re: NEC Spectraview 301 problems
« Reply #7 on: September 01, 2011, 10:53:38 am »

Again, please check whether the Radeon 4870 supports your monitor.

I wouldn't count on colour management with Firefox. I'd test consistency of colour rendition with applications known to be reliably colour-management aware, such as Photoshop and Lightroom.
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Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
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djoy

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Re: NEC Spectraview 301 problems
« Reply #8 on: September 01, 2011, 12:31:33 pm »

Again, please check whether the Radeon 4870 supports your monitor.

I don't really understand how I could, I've never seen a supported monitor list for any graphics card, I don't think card manufacturers issue them.

A Google search came up with several posts on this forum by your good self asking about compatibility of the 4870 with PA series monitors, and some links to DigiLloyd. I understand he's had some issues related to accellerated performance not meeting his expectations, I've experienced nothing along those lines.

The card can support the resolution of the monitor, it displays a picture on either DVI or DisplayPort, not sure what else I can say.

Did you meant whether the Apple drivers for this card might have incompatibilities with this monitor? In which case, it's possible, I couldn't say, and Apple never would. They're not exactly forthcoming with information, as I know you've experienced as well.  :(
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Mark D Segal

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Re: NEC Spectraview 301 problems
« Reply #9 on: September 01, 2011, 12:45:09 pm »

You're right - Apple is a pretty insular and secretive outfit to deal with. Perhaps the NEC website or a call to NEC tech support may clarify it. I wouldn't necessarily expect the card supplier to provide this information, but the display manufacturer should be able to say what cards or card specs are needed to drive their displays.
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Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
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Czornyj

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Re: NEC Spectraview 301 problems
« Reply #10 on: September 01, 2011, 01:25:50 pm »

Basically, things look OK in Lightroom or Photoshop, not so in Firefox, and yes I have enabled the colour management and set it to assume sRGB for untagged images in the browser options.
Spectraview Profiler Settings>Profile> switch off [ ] ICC v4 profile. FireFox uses lcms CMM, and doesn't handle v4 profiles.

I kind of had an expectation that because this high end monitor has the LUTs in the monitor, the colour would look right with ANY app because the conversion is taking place on the basic video output, as opposed to in the OS/app. Maybe that expectation was wrong.
In a matter of sense, yes - you can calibrate your display to mimic a certain colorspace using 3DLUT. But in a real life we're working with various color spaces - sRGB, AdobeRGB, ECI, CMYKs, countless inkjet + various papers and so on, so we rather work with the native color space of the display and let application to manage colors of images, no matter what color space they're rendered to.
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Marcin Kałuża | [URL=http://zarzadzaniebarwa

djoy

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Re: NEC Spectraview 301 problems
« Reply #11 on: September 01, 2011, 07:22:47 pm »

Another strange thing struck me, I have three devices, an EyeOne Display, and EyeOne Display2, and an EyeOne Pro spectro.

Spectraview Profiler would not, in any way, recognise either of the two colorimeters, only the spectro. It would claim to recognise them if the spectro was plugged in, then fail during calibration because it was trying to use the spectro after all.

So, after several installs, uninstalls, re-installs of both i1Match and Spectraview Profiler, I managed to get a clean install of SVP, and it recognised the EyeOne Display2. I ran through a couple of calibration runs with this instead of the spectro, and got a more satisfactory result. Validation passed with no spikes this time, average DeltaE94 of 0.24 with a max of 0.4, much better.

Colours seems good, display seems overly bright compared with the brightness setting I specified though.

Colours are still whacked in some apps, but I suppose I'll have to live with that.

May contact NEC support and see what they say.
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Czornyj

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Re: NEC Spectraview 301 problems
« Reply #12 on: September 02, 2011, 08:54:55 am »

To get more consistent results with i1pro it's recommended to warm it up before calibration for at least 15 minutes. PA301W is a hot beast and will change the temperature of the sensor during calibration, that may cause worse validation results.

You may limit the gamut of the display to sRGB using NEC Multiprofiler software, or new Spectraview Profiler 5 (basiICColor display) that is supposed to be available soon - this will give you consistent colors in non-color aware applications, but will limit the potential of the display instead.
« Last Edit: September 02, 2011, 08:56:49 am by Czornyj »
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Marcin Kałuża | [URL=http://zarzadzaniebarwa

VitOne

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Re: NEC Spectraview 301 problems
« Reply #13 on: September 03, 2011, 06:53:04 am »

I am sorry to hear that you are having troubles with the PA301W.
I own the SpectraView 301 Reference and several other monitors (including the SpectraView 271). I found that with this kind of monitors (capable of a very low black point) the i1Pro spectro doesn’t perform well. You always get unreliable results in the darker colors. If you let the instrument warm up (for what I saw) you get better results in overall but you get even worst results in the dark patches, probably because that the noise of the instrument generates increases with temperature. I am not a technician and I am not sure about the reasons of the behavior of the i1Pro, I only know that it has problems with many monitors.
There are different solutions. You can get a better device (basICColor Discus, in my opinion worth all the money, especially if you have many monitors). You can also increase the Black luminance value to 0,5 or 1 cd/mq. In this way you will get better results.
Here some other information you may find useful that I posted in another thread:
I am using a SpectraView Reference 271 and a SpectraView Reference 301 monitor. This are PA monitor from NEC that come with a certification from basICColor about their performance and with the possibility to hardware-calibrate the monitor using the Profiler software from basICColor.

I am also using a Discus device and I also own the NEC version of the EyeOne Display 2. I think that the SVR301 and the SV271 perform in a very similar way. Talking about “quality” and not size the main difference is that the SVR301 has a slightly wider gamut (impossible to notice without the numbers) and the SV271 a better black point (noticeable if you are working in a very dark environment).

Here you can see the validation of both monitors:





And here is a graphic and numerical comparison made in ColorThink Pro:



Reading both certification that I have from basICColor of the 2 display I would say that they are consistent in the same way. In my case the 271 is a little bit worse than the 301.

I give you my 2 cents also about other points.

1)   I noticed a big improvement in the quality of the profile and on the quality on the calibration using the Discus device. I own and use a Spectrolino, an i1Pro rev D, a ColorMunki, an i1Display 2 with NEC matrix and other stuff, but I never got the same results that I am getting with the Discus. I don’t understand French, but if you go to 1:25 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A7usvCURw9s you will see the same difference that I saw in the gradients. And this is not the only difference that you will see if you use a Discus. I don’t know anything about the new hardware from X-Rite and I will test it soon. At the moment I can only recommend the Discus.  

2)   There are many discussion about the European SpectraView monitor that I am using. Somebody say that they are useless at all; somebody will say that they will love them because of the software and now because of the Discus (at the moment you can use it only with basICColor software). I had many discussion with the SpectraView/basICColor tech support and I could never get an answer about the quality of the display that they use comparing it to the “medium quality” of the same display. I’ll try to be a little bit more clear: basICColor in Europe takes monitor from Nec and hand-pinks the “best” monitors (monitors that pass their tests, including uniformity tests) and then modifies them to allow the user to use basICColor software to hardware-calibrate the screen. Now the problem is that nobody really know what “best” means. Maybe all monitor will pass the certification (because they are all good). Maybe not. Now what I discovered speaking with them (but I really don’t know how much this can be true) is that the 241 and 271 monitor have usually no problems to pass the test. The 301 can have problems, and they pick “not a lot of units”. So what I think (I repeat: this is just what I think, and maybe is not true) is that some 301 monitor could not behave in the same way mine behaves and this is maybe why you can read on some reviews online that the 301 is not as good as the 271.

3)   For this monitors (271 and 301) in my opinion the best device is the Discus. Then comes the NEC i1Display2, then the i1Pro RevD, then the ColorMunky Photo. The spectros in my opinion give bad results in dark areas. If you are using this monitors (capable of a deep black) with a consumer-grade spectrophotometer you will probably get unwanted colour casts in the darkest area of your images.
« Last Edit: September 03, 2011, 07:31:52 am by VitOne »
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djoy

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Re: NEC Spectraview 301 problems
« Reply #14 on: September 07, 2011, 05:51:57 pm »

Ok, I think I've isolated the issue.

The problem is when the monitor comes out of sleep mode, or is turned on, the colours are wrong.

If I start the application when the monitor is on, the colours are fine, if the monitor goes off, when it comes back on, the colours are out.

The application I'm referring to in this case is Firefox. I know it's not a massively colour-managed app like Lightroom or Photoshop, but it IS colour managed, I have even set the extra options and even given it the display profile location. This should not be happening, not from just turning off and on the monitor.

This is not normal behaviour surely? The fact that it's inconsistent like this is severely damaging my confidence in this monitor, I'm wondering if the Lightroom/Photoshop output is consistent too.
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