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Author Topic: Is there a possibility of video in the future of phase/leaf?  (Read 3489 times)

Nstudio

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Is there a possibility of video in the future of phase/leaf?
« on: August 31, 2011, 10:45:55 am »

I have owned/worked with various incarnations of hassy h/phase since 2006 and am starting to wonder about the future of my system. Primarily it is all about shooting stills for me but every time I have been hired to shoot video, a task that is demanded with greater and greater frequency these days, it has been necessary to rent canon or RED rigs. I'm wondering if anyone has heard any rumor concerning weather phase/leaf is heading in the direction of video capture as well? Furthermore, is there any technical reason video capture can not happen in digital-back-form?

Anybody?

I'm probably the last person to give up my phase backs or my hassys in favor of a canon (at least for still shooting) but am I alone/out of line for wanting these suckers to capture video as well??
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design_freak

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Re: Is there a possibility of video in the future of phase/leaf?
« Reply #1 on: August 31, 2011, 11:04:49 am »

Human intelligence is limited. So, theoretically, anything is possible. Well, in my opinion there is no other way. This is another stage of evolution. Printed newspapers will disappear. on the device type iPad, you will not need even 40Mpix. 20 will be even far above requirements. The next technological revolution is coming ... Moving image is more attractive to customers. So the hardware will evolve towards a more movie. Unfortunately, Canon is some misunderstanding, the camera that makes movies better than doing photos. And additionally it is so damned ill-suited to making films. So I answer you that you can sleep peacefully. This is the only way for manufacturers in this sector. Who would not choose this path will disappear from the market
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design_freak

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Re: Is there a possibility of video in the future of phase/leaf?
« Reply #2 on: August 31, 2011, 11:38:03 am »

Are you aware of the format of 70/65mm film cameras? This is not a problem, moreover, the sensor need not be full frame. The problem is that the photo will disappear, at least in this form that we know today. You may not even be needed for the packaging industry ... GH2 make a "Star Wars", of course you can. Only it will be torment. Professionals require professional tools. Canon is not very professional. Sony Full HD camcorder somehow not adopted in the film industry. It was an opportunity for companies such as Hasselblad and P1. What they will do as the photographic market will disappear? Arri or Panavision are not big companies.
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UlfKrentz

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Re: Is there a possibility of video in the future of phase/leaf?
« Reply #3 on: August 31, 2011, 12:02:32 pm »

Are you aware of the format of 70/65mm film cameras? This is not a problem, moreover, the sensor need not be full frame. The problem is that the photo will disappear, at least in this form that we know today. You may not even be needed for the packaging industry ... GH2 make a "Star Wars", of course you can. Only it will be torment. Professionals require professional tools. Canon is not very professional. Sony Full HD camcorder somehow not adopted in the film industry. It was an opportunity for companies such as Hasselblad and P1. What they will do as the photographic market will disappear? Arri or Panavision are not big companies.

You´ve got a strange sort of humor...Arri is not a big company? Take a look at their presence of only the lighting devision  :D
Regarding the cams, take a good DOP, a skilled production team, professional lighting and most people will not notice any differences. Kind of like with still photography. Just my 2ct.

Cheers, Ulf
« Last Edit: August 31, 2011, 12:05:50 pm by UlfKrentz »
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design_freak

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Re: Is there a possibility of video in the future of phase/leaf?
« Reply #4 on: August 31, 2011, 12:36:01 pm »

You´ve got a strange sort of humor...Arri is not a big company? Take a look at their presence of only the lighting devision  :D
Regarding the cams, take a good DOP, a skilled production team, professional lighting and most people will not notice any differences. Kind of like with still photography. Just my 2ct.

Cheers, Ulf

When compared with Canon, Sony, Panasonic ...
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Nstudio

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Re: Is there a possibility of video in the future of phase/leaf?
« Reply #5 on: August 31, 2011, 01:17:22 pm »

Judging by your well appreciated responses to my question, it is unclear as to weather phaseone has us over a barrel any more, so its high time we begged a few minor requests. perhaps we could all take a moment and make a phone call or shoot a quick email to our phase rep.

This forum seems like as good a place as any to ask my colleagues to join me in sending out a friendly nudge to our dear friends at phase/leaf to hurry up before we decide to bail and/or buy something else. We're an impatient lot, obviously, and a caffeinated bunch too, but at the end of the day it is our money that goes to R&D for their future products. They'll listen if they want us to keep buying their products... If you are anything like me, you feel like your investment is in the company you bought from as much as it is in the equipment you needed for your businesses. I'd hate for any of you to feel as if you've lost on that investment. It was not so long ago that these companies transitioned us from c41 to p65. Hopefully they still have a bit of vision left over.

Lord knows we dont need any new loosing investments!
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bcooter

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Re: Is there a possibility of video in the future of phase/leaf?
« Reply #6 on: August 31, 2011, 01:51:42 pm »

In the last 12 months, 99% of our purchases are motion camera, lights, software, computer related.  1% towards stills and we're still showing and selling the same work we always have.

Our studio has offered motion imagery for a long time, but now instead of the shoot being heavily weighted for stills with the thought of just shoot some B roll footage, now it's a motion shoot or at minimum the motion imagery is 1/2 of the creative brief and receives 70% of the attention, that tells me where my market is going.

That's just me, others may have other results.

IMO

BC
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LKaven

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Re: Is there a possibility of video in the future of phase/leaf?
« Reply #7 on: August 31, 2011, 02:39:32 pm »

Given that Phase/Leaf depends upon third party sensor manufacturers for their sensors, none of whom are providing competitive technology in CMOS fabrication, and therefore none of the benefits of rapid-readout, global-shutter technology, I'd be placing my bets elsewhere.

One of the limitations of DSLR video today has to do with frames derived by decimation.  A very good bet in my view is the expectation that upcoming DSLRs will move to deriving video frames from full-frame captures, downsampled in real time. 

Graham Mitchell

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Re: Is there a possibility of video in the future of phase/leaf?
« Reply #8 on: August 31, 2011, 03:56:20 pm »

I'm wondering if anyone has heard any rumor concerning weather phase/leaf is heading in the direction of video capture as well?

Why would anyone want it? Medium format cameras would make pretty poor video cameras. The R&D required to implement it properly would be split over so few units and add so much to the price, that it would be cheaper to just buy a 5DII and a medium format back separately. Nothing about this idea makes sense.
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feppe

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Re: Is there a possibility of video in the future of phase/leaf?
« Reply #9 on: August 31, 2011, 04:03:09 pm »

One of the limitations of DSLR video today has to do with frames derived by decimation.  A very good bet in my view is the expectation that upcoming DSLRs will move to deriving video frames from full-frame captures, downsampled in real time.  

There are rumors that Panasonic might release a camera with a global shutter this year. Rumors, but still.

Why would anyone want it? Medium format cameras would make pretty poor video cameras. The R&D required to implement it properly would be split over so few units and add so much to the price, that it would be cheaper to just buy a 5DII and a medium format back separately. Nothing about this idea makes sense.

Agreed. My reasoning here.

As bcooter said, much of photography is moving to video. Tablet computers enable magazines to have motion, and we'll have video street ads and even product packaging with video (think Rice Krispies cardboard box showing ads for Kellogg's products) in a few short years, so motion will become more and more popular. God help us all with that visual pollution.

But saying that still is dead is even more outrageous than saying film is dead. There will always be plenty of still photography, no matter how much video there is.
« Last Edit: August 31, 2011, 04:08:58 pm by feppe »
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design_freak

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Re: Is there a possibility of video in the future of phase/leaf?
« Reply #10 on: August 31, 2011, 06:16:31 pm »

Why would anyone want it? Medium format cameras would make pretty poor video cameras. The R&D required to implement it properly would be split over so few units and add so much to the price, that it would be cheaper to just buy a 5DII and a medium format back separately. Nothing about this idea makes sense.

You wondered what they could to sell when there is no need for cameras with matrix 200MP? Because 12MP is enough for iPad! There will be no newspapers, no ads will be printed, everything will move ... Hmmm?
 It's amazing that people can not imagine it, can think only through the prism of what is now ...
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feppe

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Re: Is there a possibility of video in the future of phase/leaf?
« Reply #11 on: August 31, 2011, 09:34:54 pm »

You wondered what they could to sell when there is no need for cameras with matrix 200MP? Because 12MP is enough for iPad! There will be no newspapers, no ads will be printed, everything will move ... Hmmm?
 It's amazing that people can not imagine it, can think only through the prism of what is now ...

You should do standup.

Graham Mitchell

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Re: Is there a possibility of video in the future of phase/leaf?
« Reply #12 on: September 01, 2011, 02:43:45 am »

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design_freak

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Re: Is there a possibility of video in the future of phase/leaf?
« Reply #13 on: September 01, 2011, 04:48:54 am »

You should do standup.
The visions of Mr. Jobs' acted similarly. Men like him are changing the world, and you are capable or less talented photographers :)
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bcooter

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Re: Is there a possibility of video in the future of phase/leaf?
« Reply #14 on: September 01, 2011, 05:12:57 am »

You wondered what they could to sell when there is no need for cameras with matrix 200MP? Because 12MP is enough for iPad! There will be no newspapers, no ads will be printed, everything will move ... Hmmm?
 It's amazing that people can not imagine it, can think only through the prism of what is now ...

If you ask a client what camera brand they'd prefer you to use, or what format, I doubt if there would be a reply.  For almost any form of commercial production.

But if you ask a client what they would like to receive from the photographer/director/image maker/production team,  (whatever the title is today), almost to a person they'd like a motion and still file that could be delivered through the same production and equipment that had the same look and feel so the marketing effort can play in any available media.

Now whether this works out with medium format, canon dslrs, or RED is irrelevant to a client.

What is important to us is what we deliver and how it's accepted.  

What is important to a client is to receive the best imagery with the largest return on investment, because nobody is throwing out huge numbers without requiring a lot in return.

It's funny because in a lot of ways I'm really not that big an advocate of ending still photography and replacing it with motion.  I would love to see a place for both, but I'm not sure the people that hire me share that view, at least not in a traditional manner.

It all depends on the client, the media and final use.

I don't think anyone  doesn't believe that more and more work is going web/pad/mobile based advertising and if those devices have an advantage over traditional print is they can play multi media.

That's where I believe our role is, not just photographers, not just film makers, but producers of multi media.

So, depending on budget, style and time everyone decides what they want to shoot with, multiple cameras, single camera systems, still or motion.

Today it's mostly multiple cameras.

None of this should be a shock for us that worked through the film to digital stills revolution.  Who what have thought in the days of film a photographer would be required to process and proof their own images, retouch, pre press prep and deliver all through electronic means.

Who would have thought printing would be Epson and 90% of all the traditional photo labs would have disappeared?

Who would have thought my FEDEX deliveries would go from one or two a day shipping hard copy, spending high 5 figures on printing, ink, cd's, dvds, to almost every deliver going to ftp delivery?

Now when I hear photographers say, I won't shoot video or nobody asked me to do that, I kind of think it's the same thing as the film guys saying, I'll never shoot digital.

Everything changes and today's world it changes fast.

Tomorrow, who knows?

IMO

BC
« Last Edit: September 01, 2011, 05:15:04 am by bcooter »
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ondebanks

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Re: Is there a possibility of video in the future of phase/leaf?
« Reply #15 on: September 01, 2011, 08:16:13 am »

Furthermore, is there any technical reason video capture can not happen in digital-back-form?


Luke has provided by far the best answer to that question in this thread:

Given that Phase/Leaf depends upon third party sensor manufacturers for their sensors, none of whom are providing competitive technology in CMOS fabrication, and therefore none of the benefits of rapid-readout, global-shutter technology, I'd be placing my bets elsewhere.

One of the limitations of DSLR video today has to do with frames derived by decimation.  A very good bet in my view is the expectation that upcoming DSLRs will move to deriving video frames from full-frame captures, downsampled in real time. 

So as he says, first we would need MF CMOS sensors. This is because CCDs are read out serially, so they are just not suited to high (video) frame rates, unless the number of pixels to be read out per frame is small.

The decimation/downsampling he refers to is really important too. DSLRS, heck even compact digicams, already provide too much pixel resolution for HD video. What would you gain from MF digital capture, when you would throw away even more pixels and arrive at the same low final resolution? (causing even worse moire in the case of decimation technology!)

Now I would love to see medium format CMOS sensors, but not for video: rather for high ISO stills, which requires getting readout noise down from MF CCD norms (12 or more electrons rms) to CMOS DSLR norms (1.5 or more electrons rms).

Ray
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fredjeang

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Re: Is there a possibility of video in the future of phase/leaf?
« Reply #16 on: September 01, 2011, 09:40:34 am »

One of my former employeer is paying a high price of not having embrassed motion in a more serious way than the extra "gifts" of the past. That's one of the reason (but not the only one) why I stepped away from his studio since this summer.
As a photographer, the guy in question (wich name I don't reveal for obvious reasons) is used to tell stories and is highly trained in lightning. Motion would have suits him. But...
6 months ago I had a private conversation with him when we started to see the first signs of how he was starting to loose market parts. I knew, because I was adviced by people very well placed in advertising, what was the best thing to do: going motion+interactive. I told him, go for it now, in serious, even if you don't see it it's there.
My employeer was perfectly aware of that fact and was adviced also, but he sort of didn't beleive it enough, in fact, he was more annoyed by all the transformations it implied instead of being enthousiastic and see an oportunity to break routine and move forward. On the other hand, he did not hesitate to invest enormous amount of money in stupid useless gear that are now obsoletes, so is the tech involved. The results have been devastating, even for a man who worked at the highest level. You have to read carefully what's going on. He lived with a 70's mentality in a world that moves way faster and with different rule-games.

You're on the top, but don't fool yourself, all this is just wind. When you sink, none of those stars are there to rescue or help you. I've seen from inside how sordid is this milieu when it comes to business. Politics is a kid game compared to it. Yeah, it is bloody sordid, it stinks. Now I'm looking at all that from an healphy distance and much happier. Yes I miss some high-end sessions with some of the best ww top models (but it'll come back in another form).

Then, to be back in the story, young guys where taking more and more clients with motion works, some are good, others aren't. And they don't take clients with Red One or Arri but with 5D2 and GH2. And it works!
So the ambiance in the studio deteriorated a lot because the guy started to get a bad genius and constant negativity, and reached a point where I decided to move away and go for my personal route before it went too heavy. I realised that when you assist, as you have no power on the final decisions, what decide your employeer can help you to grow or not. I thank a lot what I learned with him, but I'm not going to let me sink with anybody because of other's blindness and let my mind being contaminated by bad vibes and negativism, nor always looking behind and being stucked in a past that doesn't exists anymore.

I've seen so many mistakes and resistances in those industry changes, and the consequences are rarely fortunates. It's up to each individual to choose, but...do it with awareness.
« Last Edit: September 01, 2011, 10:02:39 am by fredjeang »
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design_freak

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Re: Is there a possibility of video in the future of phase/leaf?
« Reply #17 on: September 01, 2011, 01:10:12 pm »

Luke has provided by far the best answer to that question in this thread:

So as he says, first we would need MF CMOS sensors. This is because CCDs are read out serially, so they are just not suited to high (video) frame rates, unless the number of pixels to be read out per frame is small.

The decimation/downsampling he refers to is really important too. DSLRS, heck even compact digicams, already provide too much pixel resolution for HD video. What would you gain from MF digital capture, when you would throw away even more pixels and arrive at the same low final resolution? (causing even worse moire in the case of decimation technology!)

Now I would love to see medium format CMOS sensors, but not for video: rather for high ISO stills, which requires getting readout noise down from MF CCD norms (12 or more electrons rms) to CMOS DSLR norms (1.5 or more electrons rms).

Ray


Again, look through the prism of what has already been created. How do these problems? They all want equipment that will be taking pictures and by the way will be able to make films. Maybe you should think otherwise ... Take a DB that will be doing only movies, size of the matrix is not important (it could be 35mm), the most important that this equipment has been optimized for specific applications. Is the problem is to design a sensor? perhaps not - certainly easier to do one that has only recorded movement.
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feppe

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Re: Is there a possibility of video in the future of phase/leaf?
« Reply #18 on: September 01, 2011, 01:17:09 pm »

This is already a major problem when the floodlight a scene pulling focus only about 7 megapixels AFAIK, which could be pulled for motion the cost from 35mm for motion of theaters. Even shallower DOF, which any current cameras, which are not suited for a fraction. What would be made with the popular, 4k has of the near future.

Perhaps more importantly, MF sensors?

Not to lights required to lights required to light a scene properly with theaters. Even when shooting rooms and a handful of MF sensors!

Courtesy of this.

ondebanks

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Re: Is there a possibility of video in the future of phase/leaf?
« Reply #19 on: September 02, 2011, 04:57:36 am »

This is already a major problem when the floodlight a scene pulling focus only about 7 megapixels AFAIK, which could be pulled for motion the cost from 35mm for motion of theaters. Even shallower DOF, which any current cameras, which are not suited for a fraction. What would be made with the popular, 4k has of the near future.

Perhaps more importantly, MF sensors?

Not to lights required to lights required to light a scene properly with theaters. Even when shooting rooms and a handful of MF sensors!

Courtesy of this.

 ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
Could not agree more.
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