BW printing? Upgrading, suggestions, please

[Gigi]

At the risk of big fires, might there be some suggestions on a good BW printer? I have been using an Epson 4000 for a long time with Imageprint RIP. The BW are OK, not great (Epson inks), but I've had few clogging problems, and do printing both color and BW, intermittently.

For years, I've admired the tones of Piezography , but the risk of clogging just seems too great. I know the 4000 is way behind the present curve - so maybe time for an upgrade?

Most BW would be matte probably, 17" is a max size that is needed (16 x 20 or so). If in the Epson world, I'd prefer to stay in the 4XXX series, (4900?), due to build quality, durability, and large ink cartridges. I think Imageprint will still be valid for a new 17" Epson - or is there a better way to go, both for reliability, and for quality? Does it make sense to change to Canon or HP? Feedback from people with real experience, and who can speak to clogging (!) would be most welcome.

Thanks!

Geoff

[Rob Reiter]

I'm very happy with the Canon iPF 8300 for black and white-neutral tones, no clogging. Send me a file and an address and I'll make a 5x7 for so you can see for yourself.

[Mark D Segal]

If you don't need more than a 17 inch width and if you don't need a roll-paper capability, I would recommend an Epson 3880. If you need roll-holder capability, then the 4900. For software, given your major interest in Black and White I recommend using either Lightroom for the B&W conversions, or for yet more capability, I very much recommend a combination of Photoshop with the Nik Silver Efex Pro 2 plugin.

[TylerB]

of all the Epsons here the 2 with Cone B&W inksets, a 7800 and a 9880, clog the least, far less than the OEM 9900 or previous 9800.
Concern about that is a misconception born of issues now far in the past.
So with regard to your decision, other factors should prevail.
Tyler
http://www.custom-digital.com/

[Peter Mellis]

I went from an Epson 2200 (which I think uses the same inks as the 4000) printing B&W with the Quadtone RIP to a 3800 using the ABW setup in the driver. The 3800 gives me excellent B&W; in most cases I use the ABW profiles developed by Eric Chan (download from his web site- http://people.csail.mit.edu/ericchan/dp/Epson3800/index.html ) for use with 3800/3880. If you don't need the roll printing capability or run the volume to justify the incremental price of the 4880, I would suggest that you consider the 3880. I'm pretty sure that you can get sample prints from Epson and/or a dealer.

Another benefit of the 3800/3880 is that it takes up a lot less space and can be lifted/moved by one person.

[Alan Goldhammer]

Another benefit of the 3800/3880 is that it takes up a lot less space and can be lifted/moved by one person.

My 3880 has yet to experience a clog and I'm now on my second set of inks.  With all the issues reported by folks, this is one fine, sturdy and clog free printer!  30% of my printing is B/W using the Epson ABW driver.

[JohnBrew]

100% with Alan on this.

[irvweiner]

Geoff, right now there us a $1000 rebate on the 4900. Posters report purchasing it for $1100+

Adorama is 1 of several--note free shpg for this big guy!!!!

http://www.adorama.com/als.mvc/Cartview?Sku=IESSP4900HDR

I'm using the 3880, the 4900 came out after my buy.

It's a fine printer and the Jon Cone Fine Art inksets may be available soon???

irv weiner

[deanwork]

It seems like the 4000 series have had a lot of complaints about random clogging, and the first version was the worst.

As far as black and white a lot depends on the type of media you want to print on.

Piezography is the least clogging inkset that I've ever used in an Epson printer.
On matte papers they have the longest most subtle tonal range of anything I've seen, by far. The high values are sculpted in a dimensional way that makes all the others look flat to me. I'll print something on my HP that I think is just right, and when I do the same file with K7 it makes the HP print look dead when comparing side by side.

As for the HP it has the best dmax by far of them all, but not as subtle tonally as Piezography K7, and that is obvious.

For gloss fiber work I prefer my Canon 8300. With the Harmon media it is totally bronze free and requires no spraying or over coat at all. On these papers when they come out of the printer with a file with no color in it they are clean and neutral and perfectly smooth. With the Canson Baryta they are great too with color and bw but I prefer to spray those to totally eliminate any trace of bronzing. The Canon, HP, and Epson bw prints are all very similar on matte papers but with HP having a noticeable edge in dmax and placed beside the Canon in my case with large areas of pure black it is very noticeable. But that is only in cases where there are large backgrounds of pure 100% black.

The Piezography inks don't have that level of dmax if you measure them with a spectro, but to me they almost always look richer overall due to the extended tonal range, giving them the illusion of greater dmax they they actually read. From what I have seen from the new Epson's, their bw with a well made profile is the same as with the new Canons on matte media.

john

[Light Seeker]

John, are you using True BW now to make your 8300 prints?

Terry.

[deanwork]

Yes, it is great. However, I can also see excellent results using a well designed rgb profile and sending it over there as an rgb file with no color content added ( aka "neutral". When you get into the matt papers with the 8300 I like what TBW can do for you with slight warm toning.

With neutral on the gloss fiber media, TBW has confirmed ( with their easy to see color channel graphic) this configuration is a tri tone of gray inks only with no color hues added. Matt papers straight like this, like the HP, move a tad toward coolness, and for me I like to warm them a hair.

I have to say as something of a correction from my last post, the Canson Baryta really doesn't need any spray coat either. The bw and color portraits I just did today look really really nice they way the printer handed them to me. Using a spray only adds a little "gelatin silver" integration to the whole situation.

j

John, are you using True BW now to make your 8300 prints?

Terry.

[EricWHiss]

Geoff,
I've not seen a black and white print that can match the piezotones, however it requires a dedicated system to run them on, and actually once the prints are under glass a lot of the advantage of piezotones is lost at least IMHO.   It's been a while since I used the piezotone inks so maybe they are improved however my experience was rife with clogs particularly if the printer had not been used recently.   Actually all my Epson experiences (3000, 4000, 7600) are old but I remember nothing but trouble with clogs, paper misfeads, and ink wastage.    But that said if you already have a 4000 that you are thinking of replacing why not convert it to piezotones and give it a go?   I used the QuadTone Rip software with mine and thought that was very good.

[deanwork]

Piezotones are the old Cone quad technology, and still beat any of the OEM monochrome options that use three gray channels. They required shaking the ink carts regularly to keep perfectly in suspension and avoid clogs. A lot of people just never realized that. ( same was true of the Epson k2  Ultrachrome inks by the way).They work best out of Studio Print which has more flexibility than QTR. And some of the finest bw prints I've ever seen used this configuration.

For about 5 years now the state of the art is the K7 Piezography that uses 6 dilutions of gray and a black (not Piezotones with only 4 channels total). K7 is triple encapsulated with a polymer and the only ink I've ever used in an Epson printer that didn't have clog issues regularly. They absolutely do not loose any subtlety behind glass. As a matter of fact they are spectacular and three dimensional when framed. With the standard Cone made curves with QTR in these modern printers they are tonally fantastic with the all of the Epson printers from the 9600  on. I also have this stuff in a 10k and a little Epson 2200 where I mix various hue sets, and I don't even worry about nozzle checks anymore with these printers. They just run smooth as can be.

[Gigi]

Thanks for all the good ideas.

Given the options out there..... one of those running jumps and chose  the 4900 at the screaming price of $1145, all in, no tax, no shipping cost. Hard to resist.... It will do better than the 4000, and as Eric says, always can try PZ on the 4000. Seemed like a decent compromise of various flexibliites, including the internal gloss/matte changeover for the black inks. As to clogging, the 4000 has been pretty much OK, so this should be as good or better.

Appreciate all the good inputs.

[deanwork]

I'll tell you a good tip before resetting up the 4000 again.

I bought some of this pink Cone flush fluid at inkjet mall a couple of years ago. I was having nozzle issues with my old 10K and I though the head might need to be replaced. I put that flush fluid in there and did a couple of initial fills to totally flush the thing out. Then I left them in there for a long time because I wasn't ready to set up that printer. They were in there for months.

Recently I put the Cone K7 Carbon Sepia (now called K7 Carbon) in it and man the whole printer was like new again. This stuff totally reamed out the lines the dampers (which are original) and the print heads ( original now 10 years old). It makes sense when you think about it. These pigment inks, especially some of the older ones over time would leave deposits of all kind of gunk in your lines, dampers and heads that never really got out completely, much of it dried there. Eventually you will end up with a blocked artery, just like when cholesterol gums up your blood arteries and your heart.

On a side note, someone told me recently that the Epson 9600 heads were used to print with solvent inks on military hardware, in particular nuclear missles.
I don't know if that was really true or not, but one thing for sure these heads are often still very good when they get gummed up by all the crap in these ink formulations, not to mention the dampers and the lines. I now firmly believe they need a thorough flushing out every few years to run really effectively.
Course most people just trash them and buy a new model, whether it is better or not. With bw inksets you don't need a new model.

j