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Author Topic: 8x10 ...... digital  (Read 14847 times)

ondebanks

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Re: 8x10 ...... digital
« Reply #20 on: August 29, 2011, 09:28:16 AM »

Indeed, you're not a technical guy...


Are you a technical guy, design_freak? If so, why don't you answer Mr. Rib's question?
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design_freak

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Re: 8x10 ...... digital
« Reply #21 on: August 29, 2011, 12:15:34 PM »

Are you a technical guy, design_freak? If so, why don't you answer Mr. Rib's question?


I'm so technical that I know how to use "google" . Unfortunately people are lazy and ask questions instead of searching for answers. Just answer: it is too expensive
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eronald

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Re: 8x10 ...... digital
« Reply #22 on: August 29, 2011, 12:33:05 PM »

Actually, mosaicing would work for what is essentially a test strip that can have lacunae. I never understood why wafer scale tech isnt used more, i think it has more to do with common limitations of manufacturing equipment and intellectual laziness rather than real difficulty or expense. A direct write on wafer (ion implantation) system could probably have done it even back in my day, but these were little used, except by the chinese who built their own to circumvent the embargo on steppers. Disclaimer: I only wrote one Cad system and designed only one chip in my student days, so I know nothing whatsoever about *today's* technology.

Edmund
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ondebanks

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Re: 8x10 ...... digital
« Reply #23 on: August 29, 2011, 02:11:55 PM »

I'm so technical that I know how to use "google" . Unfortunately people are lazy and ask questions instead of searching for answers. Just answer: it is too expensive

And there I was, actually spending time to teach my students, when all along I should have been telling them: "Don't be so lazy! Just use google and leave me alone!"

You know, with this approach, we could eliminate entire expensive educational systems.  No-one with knowledge, skills and experience need ever be employed again to impart them.  ::)

Ray
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design_freak

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Re: 8x10 ...... digital
« Reply #24 on: August 29, 2011, 02:58:05 PM »

And there I was, actually spending time to teach my students, when all along I should have been telling them: "Don't be so lazy! Just use google and leave me alone!"

You know, with this approach, we could eliminate entire expensive educational systems.  No-one with knowledge, skills and experience need ever be employed again to impart them.  ::)

Ray

Quietly, maybe no one will hear :-)
 So seriously, teaching the students is another matter. Their knowledge must be thorough, this can not be replaced by the Internet. But it was good if your students know how to use google. Unfortunately, according to recent studies, even students in engineering have a problem with finding information via Google....
 Do not suppose that MR. Rib wanted to be a student and explore the mysteries of CCD sensor technology, construction and in the future to build them. He is too old  ::)  But he can still learn a trick to use google.
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Mr. Rib

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Re: 8x10 ...... digital
« Reply #25 on: August 29, 2011, 06:02:53 PM »

It's not lazyness, it's depending on your best information source, which for me is Lula when it comes to technical matters. I'm not sure what's wrong with you but I hope you'll get over it.
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feppe

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Re: 8x10 ...... digital
« Reply #26 on: August 29, 2011, 06:16:52 PM »

It's not lazyness, it's depending on your best information source, which for me is Lula when it comes to technical matters. I'm not sure what's wrong with you but I hope you'll get over it.

Don't worry, it's his MO, just take a glimpse at his commenting history.

design_freak

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Re: 8x10 ...... digital
« Reply #27 on: August 29, 2011, 06:39:40 PM »

Don't worry, it's his MO, just take a glimpse at his commenting history.

a man who thinks that Nokia is still the market leader ...

I know that someone knows better it becomes annoying. But what can I do? With this should be born  ;D
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feppe

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Re: 8x10 ...... digital
« Reply #28 on: August 29, 2011, 06:48:30 PM »

a man who thinks that Nokia is still the market leader ...

I know that someone knows better it becomes annoying. But what can I do? With this should be born  Grin

I know they are: IDC CQ1, Gartner CQ2.

I don't know what your second sentence means. Nor do I care.

design_freak

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Re: 8x10 ...... digital
« Reply #29 on: August 29, 2011, 06:55:21 PM »

It's not lazyness, it's depending on your best information source, which for me is Lula when it comes to technical matters. I'm not sure what's wrong with you but I hope you'll get over it.

If you feel offended, I apologize. That I have a way of being. Such chip is done for the Army. Hence they are very expensive toys. So you will not find such sensors in a long time in MF. Contrary to appearances, is not built with several ready-made sensors.

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eronald

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Re: 8x10 ...... digital
« Reply #30 on: August 29, 2011, 07:18:47 PM »

If you feel offended, I apologize. That I have a way of being. Such chip is done for the Army. Hence they are very expensive toys. So you will not find such sensors in a long time in MF. Contrary to appearances, is not built with several ready-made sensors.



Off the top of my head, I'd expect $50-100K in mask creation costs for an old process, and then each chip costs you a wafer. For a current process you need $300K or so for masks, but who needs a current process to make HUGE sensor cells?

On a related note, I would speculate that the fab lines and processes used to make the iPad3 display could easily be modded to make a large sensor with very large cells.

I can keep making up fake numbers and smart sentences and general BS, while you people talk about Google. But in fact, the marginal costs per sensor for *LO-REZ* 8x10 these days are probably in line with making them for what an H4D60 is sold for today, apart from the initial design and masking costs.

Actually, all of that is engineering, it's not as hard as photography :) once someone has already done it the first time, any idiot like me can do it again by following the recipe with a bit of work. Look up the circuits, get process details, spend a night on the simulator, iterate until exhausted ... the chip topography is very repetitive (just like memory, in fact in a way it is memory) and so you probably only have a handful of base cells to deal with.

I'd be surprised if they have more than a couple of people doing the layout on each sensor they push out at DALSA; of course they have the house design libraries to back them up, but so did I when I was young.

Edmund

« Last Edit: August 29, 2011, 07:32:50 PM by eronald »
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feppe

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Re: 8x10 ...... digital
« Reply #31 on: August 29, 2011, 07:36:51 PM »

Here's another way to make digital 8x10 (or so) sized pictures on the cheap.

design_freak

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Re: 8x10 ...... digital
« Reply #32 on: August 29, 2011, 07:42:17 PM »

Off the top of my head, I'd expect $50-100K in mask creation costs for an old process, and then each chip costs you a wafer. For a current process you need $300K or so for masks, but who needs a current process to make HUGE sensor cells?

On a related note, I would speculate that the fab lines and processes used to make the iPad3 display could easily be modded to make a large sensor with very large cells.

I can keep making up fake numbers and smart sentences and general BS, while you people talk about Google. But in fact, the marginal costs per sensor for *LO-REZ* 8x10 these days are probably in line with making them for what an H4D60 is sold for today, apart from the initial design and masking costs.

Actually, all of that is engineering, it's not as hard as photography :) once someone has already done it the first time, any idiot like me can do it again by following the recipe with a bit of work. Look up the circuits, get process details, spend a night on the simulator, iterate until exhausted ...

I'd be surprised if they have more than a couple of people doing the layout on each sensor they push out at DALSA; of course they have the house design libraries to back them up, but so did I when I was young.

Edmund



The question is, who really needs it. Is this the right way forward ... Whether the investment will pay for itself? And even if it's not better to squeeze as much as possible with current technology. Chip costs some $ 500-2000, and the camera 20k - 40k. If I were a manufacturer of squeeze as much as possible from what I have.
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design_freak

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Re: 8x10 ...... digital
« Reply #33 on: August 29, 2011, 07:50:43 PM »

Here's another way to make digital 8x10 (or so) sized pictures on the cheap.

You can...
but not simpler just to use the film? Nicer, more pleasant ...
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feppe

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Re: 8x10 ...... digital
« Reply #34 on: August 29, 2011, 08:10:51 PM »

You can...
but not simpler just to use the film? Nicer, more pleasant ...

Indeed, you are not a tinkerer.

eronald

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Re: 8x10 ...... digital
« Reply #35 on: August 29, 2011, 08:32:02 PM »

The question is, who really needs it. Is this the right way forward ... Whether the investment will pay for itself? And even if it's not better to squeeze as much as possible with current technology. Chip costs some $ 500-2000, and the camera 20k - 40k. If I were a manufacturer of squeeze as much as possible from what I have.


It's a question of perspective - I mean as the OP notes, it just takes one guy who wants one for the base investment to be amortized; after that you could imagine a cottage industry - if someone offered me a high quality 8x10 back for $1O K I think I'd go for it, even at the cost of selling a lot f my lenses.

Actually, I'm quite astonished that the guy who had the 8x10 polaroid made didn't have one made that was good enough for photographic purposes.

Edmund
« Last Edit: August 29, 2011, 08:54:37 PM by eronald »
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EricWHiss

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Re: 8x10 ...... digital
« Reply #36 on: August 29, 2011, 10:37:52 PM »

Yeah, it kind of blows my mind that he'd go to all that trouble and expense with the idea that he would not replace both the polaraoids and the film costs by getting something higher res.   Admittedly, I've never shot 8x10 film so can't say firsthand how wonderful it is, but it must be.....

as and aside, I am wondering how much capital went into the 'impossible project' to bring back polaroids anyhow?

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Gigi

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Re: 8x10 ...... digital
« Reply #37 on: August 30, 2011, 03:14:42 PM »

of course one wonders: if you could get about the same level of quality with a chip that was 4 x 5 cm, gave 80 mp resolution, was portable, already battle tested, would you rather carry around an 8x10 view camera?
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Geoff

eronald

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Re: 8x10 ...... digital
« Reply #38 on: August 30, 2011, 03:18:08 PM »

of course one wonders: if you could get about the same level of quality with a chip that was 4 x 5 cm, gave 80 mp resolution, was portable, already battle tested, would you rather carry around an 8x10 view camera?


Either would be nice :)

Edmund
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design_freak

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Re: 8x10 ...... digital
« Reply #39 on: August 30, 2011, 06:11:30 PM »

Of course it would be great to have 80 - 150 megapixel at 8x10 Or 6x7. Only if someone is aware of what it costs, because unfortunately the same matrix is not the end. What is needed is a body, lenses, pretty damn accurate AF systems. (In this format, it is quite a big problem, depth of field is very small). Since I am professionally associated with the determination of what will be put on the market and what does not and why. My intuition tells me that the sooner we will see MF camera that will make films and it will be sooner than later. The reason is quite simple, such are the expectations of customers. Film industry is attractive, gives security to the manufacturer for the failure of the market as a result of technological transformation.
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