IQ series dynamic range question.

[craigrudlin]

May I please beg your indulgence and ask some "novice" (for MF) questions from the experts here on the forum.


QUESTION 1: I am considering the move from 35mm to MF and have read several times, each of the reviews on LL.
Most of the reviews are on the IQ180.  However, much as I would like and appreciate this back, reality
is that I will probably only be able to afford the IQ140.

I understand that the IQ140 uses the same sensor as in the P series.

Thus, besides the LCD and user interface per se (which are reason enough to choose the IQ series),
is there any other changes or improvements in the newer model.  That is, with the IQ series, has
the firmware/software been tweaked such that even though it is the same sensor, it now has a
greater dynamic range, better ISO performance (lower noise), etc.?

QUESTION 2:   Is the dynamic range the same for the IQ140 and the IQ160?  How much less is it than
the newer chip in the IQ180?  I realize the obvious, that the resolution per se is greater, but as stated
in the several reviews, it is not just the total megapixels that lend the MF images that "micro-contrast"
and I feel three dimensionality that is missing in 35mm format.  Does the IQ140 still provide this, or
is it only really apparent in the 80 MP sensor.  (Note: I do routinely make 20x30 and 24-x36 prints and
would enjoy making even larger ones on my ipf8300 printer.)

QUESTION 3:  The reviews on LL have several times mentioned that the alignment of the plane of the sensor
with the lens and camera body must be precise.  Whereas the H4 and the S2 are aligned at the factory and
in essence cannot be adjusted by me, the IQ series are designed to be attached to different bodies.  Is there
therefore, an issue with alignment?  How does one assure that the back is so precisely aligned ? (One review
regarding attaching it to a technical camera discussed mm shims!)

QUESTION 4:  Coming from the Nikon D3 world, I am use to 51 focus points and selecting the one appropriate
for my carefully chosen composition.  Apparently, this is not the approach in MF where there is a single focus
point in the center (or perhaps a couple to either side).  Rather, I have read, the approach is to focus and
re-compose.  But, this introduces errors that Hasselblaud  claims are necessarily corrected with "True Focus"
in the H4.   I do not see any discussion of this in the Phase One world.  Is this because they address  the issue
quietly without bothering me, or because they cannot address the issue as effectively as H4 and don't want
to mention it or bring the subject to my attention?   (I almost always am shooting on a tripod, and NOT in a studio --
I do nature, landscape and abstracts derived therefrom, and NOT models.)  It seems to be that the focus and
recompose is an awkward approach -- is it really a necessary evil when moving to MF?

QUESTION 5:   Besides the LCD, how does the image quality, dynamic range, etc. compare between the IQ140
and the Leica S2 and the Hasselblaud H4?   (Assuming, if one can, the "best" lenses each offers.)

QUESTION 6:  Can the IQ140 back be used with the H4?  (I know Phase One won the legal battle, but did they
go ahead with a back for the H4 and can the H4 be purchased without the H back).

I thank everyone in advance for their understanding and tolerance of my "naive" questions, and their helpful responses.
I hope the answers will help me in deciding where and with what to enter the MF world.

craig

craig rudlin
rudlin fine art
www.rudlinfineart.com

[BernardLanguillier]

Any reason not to consider the Pentax 645D?

Cheers,
Bernard

[Tinstafl]

I also would love to hear the answers to this one.  I would love it if you could also include the 645D as well. it is weather sealed and a landscape camera but the ability to use the back on different cameras is interesting but how many really used that many different bodies with their back.

[torchiam]

i am a newbie here.i just try to help with what i learned in the past few months

q1:do not know.but i think CCD is the root of the specification.user interface,software or firmware are just decorations. which means even you see lower noise,it must be software decoration.and you can do it by computer any time after.

q2:it is official that the 80 magepixels ccd is a brand new sensor.140 and 160 are in same generation with P series.so i think you can expect a better performance than 140 and 160.but like other friends here told me,every image will blow you away when you enter the MF digital back world.and not to say phase one P series has a very good reputation

q3:do not know,

q4:i bought the IQ for studio use only which means flash and small apterture.i believe MF cameras are intended to use with small aperture(8~11) which brings deep depth of view,so the focus is not a problem in most of the time.i think this where the difference comes out between MF and leica m and some of dslr users.leica M users always chase for large aperture.so as some dslr users.i read a lot about people give compliment to hassel's true focuse function.but i never had a chance to try it.

q5:i dont know H4.but i have not read any review about leica s2 beats IQ series.hassel's multiple shot may give you advantage when you do still subjects.but i think budget wise it is in same rang as IQ 180

q6:this is a question i asked everywhere.and no,H4 is a close system.everything made for H4 is only for H4,and anything is not made for H4 dose not go with H4.

hope these not professional answers can provide you some ideas

T

[Doug Peterson]

Note up front that I am the Head of Technical Services for Capture Integration a dealer of Phase One and Leaf in the US. We do not sell Hasselblad and therefore you must consider us a source of biased information. I'd argue strongly we still provide honest, intelligent advice based on extensive real-world testing and place a huge premium on trust/honor. But we are dealers and we do have a horse in the race.

I understand that the IQ140 uses the same sensor as in the P series.

Thus, besides the LCD and user interface per se (which are reason enough to choose the IQ series),
is there any other changes or improvements in the newer model.  That is, with the IQ series, has
the firmware/software been tweaked such that even though it is the same sensor, it now has a
greater dynamic range, better ISO performance (lower noise), etc.?

The interface and LCD should not be underestimated in how much it affects day to day use. It's really a revolution in camera interfaces.

But no, absolute image quality is very similar to the point of being effectively identical. Some very minor improvements in noise, DR, color, and long exposures have been accomplished. But nothing worth speaking of for very long. That said a P65+ image quality is nothing to sneeze at - still better than just nearly every other camera on the market. So "not better than a P65+" is hardly an insult 

QUESTION 2:   Is the dynamic range the same for the IQ140 and the IQ160?  How much less is it than
the newer chip in the IQ180?  I realize the obvious, that the resolution per se is greater, but as stated
in the several reviews, it is not just the total megapixels that lend the MF images that "micro-contrast"
and I feel three dimensionality that is missing in 35mm format.  Does the IQ140 still provide this, or
is it only really apparent in the 80 MP sensor.  (Note: I do routinely make 20x30 and 24-x36 prints and
would enjoy making even larger ones on my ipf8300 printer.)

IQ140 and IQ160 DR are effectively identical. The IQ140 is a 1.3 crop out of the IQ160 sensor (same sensor generation, same technology, smaller cut of the silicon). MF is different than 35mm for many reasons - sensor size is just one of them. From the point of view of sensor size a P65+ or IQ140 does have a larger sensor and therefore will show more DOF falloff for any given DOF and fill-the-frame composition of a subject.

Conversations that try to quantify DR are always going to run into brick walls. But I do place my reputation that an IQ180 holds highlight/shadow detail/gradiations/color/texture better than does the P65+. How much better? I'd encourage you to try them both yourself and to bear in mind that DR is not an attribute conducive to being described by a single number (no matter how much pixel peepers want to define it as a direct derivative of SNR). Photographers care a lot more aout how detail is rendered (is it posterized, is it consistent, is the color accuracy there, does it fall off into no-data gracefully) than the absolute mathematical evaluation of detail.

QUESTION 3:  The reviews on LL have several times mentioned that the alignment of the plane of the sensor
with the lens and camera body must be precise.  Whereas the H4 and the S2 are aligned at the factory and
in essence cannot be adjusted by me, the IQ series are designed to be attached to different bodies.  Is there
therefore, an issue with alignment?  How does one assure that the back is so precisely aligned ? (One review
regarding attaching it to a technical camera discussed mm shims!)

All back/bodies from all manufacturers are adjusted/calibrated at the factory (not just to mm but to small fractions of a mm). Either to a mated pair or to a particular specification. In four years and many many customers I've overseen a handful of focus-calibration issues for Phase One or Leaf backs (which are calibrated to a specification rather than to a mated pair).

If you want to test this simply point the camera at something very specific, focus and take a picture (repeat several times to average out your results). If the thing is properly in focus then the calibration is perfect. If the system is front-focusing or back focusing then your Phase One dealer will get it fixed with minimal hassle (for free as part of the warranty). This is very very rare in my experience.

The other side of the coin is that Phase will let you buy/use/rent any backup/replacement/second body without requiring any factory unlocking or mating. They will also let you buy last generation bodies such as the Phase One AF which can be had for much less $ (the AF is a bit slower in autofocus and isn't e.g. compatible with the V-Grip but for the money makes a great backup body to have just in case - I don't believe any pro should be without a backup body regardless of which brand they choose).

(I almost always am shooting on a tripod, and NOT in a studio --
I do nature, landscape and abstracts derived therefrom, and NOT models.)  It seems to be that the focus and
recompose is an awkward approach -- is it really a necessary evil when moving to MF?

When on a tripod a live-view or focus-mask based focusing confirmation is going to be more efficient than any focus-recompose system since you don't want to have to recompose each time you want to change focus. Focus mask and Live View without a computer are both exclusively available on the IQ.

QUESTION 5:   Besides the LCD, how does the image quality, dynamic range, etc. compare between the IQ140
and the Leica S2 and the Hasselblaud H4?   (Assuming, if one can, the "best" lenses each offers.)

I can't answer this question given my bias. But please make sure to do some hands on testing of your own.

I'd also encourage you to keep asking questions since there are many questions that I consider very important that you haven't asked. Such as, which brand's dedicate processing software (which you'll want to use to get best results regardless of what brand you choose) is fastest, most flexible, known by the most assistants, and is considered the industry leader in image quality. You will after all be spending at least half your total time in software.

Doug Peterson (e-mail Me)
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[craigrudlin]

Thanks Doug.

 I am trying to arrange a demo as soon as possible.

[dfarkas]

Thanks Doug.

 I am trying to arrange a demo as soon as possible.

Craig,

I'd suggest trying out the Leica S2 as well (Leica S2 Professional Rental | Dale Photo & Digital). Coming from a Nikon D3, you'd probably feel most comfortable with the S2's form factor (actually a bit smaller and lighter than the D3). Other familiar features will be total system weather sealing (body and lenses), extremely good battery life (~2000 shots) and near instantaneous interface response (zooming, scrolling through images, etc).

I think you will find under "ideal" circumstances that the image quality from the S2, IQ140 and H4D-40 to be very comparable. At this level of camera, image quality should be a given; it's everything else that you will deal with on a daily basis that starts to matter more and more. And since every photographer has different criteria, it is always a good idea to do your own evaluation.

David

[TH_Alpa]

Craig,

It is not "mm" shims, but we are dealing here with 1/100th of mm shims.
But you would be surprised to see how mis-aligned these sensors can sometimes be, in all directions.
But a precise shimming can deal with this.

Best regards
Thierry

May I please beg your indulgence and ask some "novice" (for MF) questions from the experts here on the forum.

How does one assure that the back is so precisely aligned ? (One review
regarding attaching it to a technical camera discussed mm shims!)

craig

[ErikKaffehr]

Hi,

Check this article: http://www.josephholmes.com/news-medformatprecision.html

Best regards
Erik

Craig,

It is not "mm" shims, but we are dealing here with 1/100th of mm shims.
But you would be surprised to see how mis-aligned these sensors can sometimes be, in all directions.
But a precise shimming can deal with this.

Best regards
Thierry

[TH_Alpa]

Interesting, thanks Erik.

Best regards
Thierry

Hi,

Check this article: http://www.josephholmes.com/news-medformatprecision.html

Best regards
Erik

[Alan W George]

I also would love to hear the answers to this one.  I would love it if you could also include the 645D as well. it is weather sealed and a landscape camera but the ability to use the back on different cameras is interesting but how many really used that many different bodies with their back.

I believe quite a few people use both tech cameras and SLRs with their digital backs. 

[marcmccalmont]

I can only make a relative comparison for you on the Dynamic Range of the IQ180
My first DSLR was a Canon 5D it could just barely capture the DR of a daylight scene (I was happy)
then my P30 had significantly more DR maybe 2 stops?
then my 5DII was about the same as my P30.
My P45+ was a bit better yet
My K5 trumps them all by about 2 stops fantastic now I can pull some real detail out of the shadows!
My IQ180 has the most DR maybe 1/2 stop more than the K5 significantly more than the P45+ and 5DII
I have found DxOmark to correlate closely to what I see
Marc

[Guy Mancuso]

The DR on the 180 is about a half a stop better than the p40,p65 , 140 and 160. I currently own the 160 and upgraded from the P40. Great back