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Author Topic: Film scanning quality from 120 scans at pro lab ?  (Read 6739 times)

fudsylow

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Film scanning quality from 120 scans at pro lab ?
« on: August 15, 2011, 12:28:08 pm »

Hi guys,
I am about to order a contax 645 camera.
I will be shooting film, but alot of my current workflow I will continue with, such as designing albums and books, requires the digital files.... I note that there are pro labs around that scan 120 film and provide high resolution (40MB) file sizes...

In your experiences, how large, or good a quality are these files ? Are they comparible to a negative print when printing large prints, around the 30-40 inch size ?

How much photoshopping would a high resolution pro lab scan require before it is "printable" after scanning ?

Are the scanners awesome now, and I am just worrying about nothing ?

If someone could please fill me in on the quality concerns and hesitations I am having ? ? ? ?

Cheers
Rich.
:)
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dwhistance

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Re: Film scanning quality from 120 scans at pro lab ?
« Reply #1 on: August 15, 2011, 04:37:45 pm »

Hi Rich,

The quality of scanned 120 film, either negatives or positives, can be very high but a lot depends upon the skill of the scanner operator and also to some extent on the equipment used.  It also of course depends upon the skill of the photographer and the equipment used when the film was exposed.  Check with your local labs to see that they use either a high end flatbed or (preferably in my opinion) a drumscanner.  Also check to see what resolution they use.  A 40mb file is really very small and won't make a good print at the size you indicate.  My typical 6x7 scans at 4000spi are more like 600mb and I have often made 32"x40" prints from them that I believe are very much better than are achievable printing from a negative.  Whether or not they require a lot of work in Photoshop depends upon how well the film has been stored, how clean the scanning area is (both of which affect the amount of dust spotting required) and what you want from the print (which affects the work needed in curves, etc).  I hope this is helpful.

David Whistance
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Cineski

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Re: Film scanning quality from 120 scans at pro lab ?
« Reply #2 on: August 15, 2011, 04:45:25 pm »

While brides wanting film do exist, but the vast majority of people out there will not hire a photographer just because they're shooting film let alone medium format let alone something that Jose Villa shoots.  If I can stereotype today's bride in today's economy, it's mostly a matter of the best quality for the lowest cost, but cost will completely tramp quality.  It's not an overly pretty sight.  Yes there are brides that do want film and/or medium format film but it's not a magic pill to make the majority of people spend more.  It'll always be about skill and we're simply in a severely bad economy so it is more about price than I've ever seen.  Again, this is just a generalization.  If you have access to those higher end film seeking brides it may make a difference for you.  If you don't, you're wasting money from a business standpoint because most consumers can't see a difference between an uncle bob photo out of a digital rebel or a masterfully composed and executed shot done with medium format film.  

The images out of Contax 645 (and medium format in general) are freaking superb compared to 35mm film and 35mm digital but you're only as good as your scans.  As for the Contax itself, it's an amazing camera with a few small drawbacks that are mostly ignorable.  The lenses are absolutely amazing and was the main reason I chose Contax over the others.  I originally was intending to go with newer Mamiya (for the Schneider glass with leaf shutters) when I was deciding but found out they phased out film from their newer cameras  ::).  Even the newer Hassy's aren't film compatible which is IMO completely stupid to close your system even off to that.  Especially when it's evident that MF film is making a comeback.  How hard would it have been to just allow people to use older film backs on the newer cameras??  The bodies are identical but they've been engineered to close the system of which puts a bad taste in my mouth.  I had a few nice emails with Mamiya about film backs but ended up with Contax because I wanted f/2 and f/2.8 lenses with film and the option to do digital.  I just wasn't that impressed with any other older mf film system when compared to the Contax.

As for film labs, I still can't find a lab that does consistent quality work and I really wish I could find a cheaper lab that does good scans.  Even Richards (which is the best lab I've been using lately) often does so-so work and charge quite a bit.  When they're on, they absolutely nail it.  But there are techs working there that leave the scanners on full auto and just scan away despite getting different color casts among duplicate negatives.  They don't necessarily do color correction and I've had duplicate images come back with one scan spot on and the next scan overly blue despite the image being the exact same on the two negs.  I'm also a bit sick of the Fuji Frontier elitism that RPL presents because of Villa and others are inspiring people to over-use them.  Everyone thinks that by shooting Contax 645 with Fuji 400h film and scanning on frontier they'll suddenly be in high demand.  It's still about skills and while most photographers know who Jose and Jonathan and Elizabeth are, most brides don't.  I just dropped some film off from a portrait session I did with some pilots and requested it be scanned on their Noritsu so I'll see how it goes.  As for size of images, only you can really know what size you print at and if you want 30-40 inches I'd recommend the large res scans (which are done on the Noritsu).  Call the lab up and find out their dimensions.  I've been meaning to do a test roll with North Coast Photographic Service as I've heard good things about them.  Other than that, while I do feel frustrations with Richards at times, their scans are the best I've encountered.

Film is in a very strange place right now.  The new films are phenomenal and are breathing new life into amazing camera systems like Contax and the use of film.  The problem is the scanners or an economical and high quality way of digitizing your negs.  An amazing image on film is only as technically good as the scanner and the operator.  I'm thinking about a scanner right now because shooting medium format is crazy expensive when you take it to most quality labs.  Shoot 100 rolls and you've spent upwards of $4000 on average.  So why not get you're own scanner?  Well, because a good scanner costs a good bit of money.  Even a used Frontier can be had for $3500.  If you're dealing with weddings you need something that's high volume capable or scanning will take over your life.  Nikon is highly praised but stopped making their scanners so they're in demand, hard to get and expensive.  Kinda like Contax ;-).  There's a new one coming out from Pacific Image called the Primefilm 120 but I haven't heard of anyone who has one yet but it'll be great if it turns out to be a great performer.  There are some amazing scanners from other manufacturers like Hassy/Imacon but you'll pay through the nose for it.  Anyway, hope this helps and just my opinion.
« Last Edit: August 15, 2011, 11:25:00 pm by Cineski »
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SecondFocus

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Re: Film scanning quality from 120 scans at pro lab ?
« Reply #3 on: August 19, 2011, 02:26:18 pm »

You just need to work with a good lab. I shoot 120 all the time and typically get 50 mb drum scans on selects. They can just look beautiful!

I use The Icon in Los Angeles; Fedex there and Fedex back. And of course online delivery too.

Great service, great people.

http://www.iconla.com/main/

Hi guys,
I am about to order a contax 645 camera.
I will be shooting film, but alot of my current workflow I will continue with, such as designing albums and books, requires the digital files.... I note that there are pro labs around that scan 120 film and provide high resolution (40MB) file sizes...

In your experiences, how large, or good a quality are these files ? Are they comparible to a negative print when printing large prints, around the 30-40 inch size ?

How much photoshopping would a high resolution pro lab scan require before it is "printable" after scanning ?

Are the scanners awesome now, and I am just worrying about nothing ?

If someone could please fill me in on the quality concerns and hesitations I am having ? ? ? ?

Cheers
Rich.
:)

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fudsylow

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Re: Film scanning quality from 120 scans at pro lab ?
« Reply #4 on: August 20, 2011, 02:20:11 am »

Thanks guys for your feedback...
Will have to shoot off a few rolls and send them off for scanning at different labs.
I thank you all sincerely for your feedback and comments.

I am not thinking that "buying a mercedes will make me a better driver" is the answer with film. I had only heard of one of the photographers that was mentioned, so I guess down here in Australia we must be behind the times :) hehehe.. yeah, we are still shooting digital! bahahaha...

Thanks again guys, you sure have put my mind at ease...

Cheers
Rich.
:)
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Camdavidson

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Re: Film scanning quality from 120 scans at pro lab ?
« Reply #5 on: August 20, 2011, 06:45:18 pm »

Richards/Paris Lab in Los Angeles is also very good.  $30 per roll and each frame scanned is about 40-60 megs.  Quality of processing is good.

Also, Millers Digital Imaging processes C-41 with lower rez scans around 20 megs per frame at close to $10.00 per roll.

For B&W processing, Dalmation lab in North Carolina is excellent.  They also have scan options with processing.
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KevinA

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Re: Film scanning quality from 120 scans at pro lab ?
« Reply #6 on: August 21, 2011, 04:31:12 pm »

Hi guys,
I am about to order a contax 645 camera.
I will be shooting film, but alot of my current workflow I will continue with, such as designing albums and books, requires the digital files.... I note that there are pro labs around that scan 120 film and provide high resolution (40MB) file sizes...

In your experiences, how large, or good a quality are these files ? Are they comparible to a negative print when printing large prints, around the 30-40 inch size ?

How much photoshopping would a high resolution pro lab scan require before it is "printable" after scanning ?

Are the scanners awesome now, and I am just worrying about nothing ?

If someone could please fill me in on the quality concerns and hesitations I am having ? ? ? ?

Cheers
Rich.
:)

It's not wether they are good or bad but do they do what you need.
I scan 120 colour neg and get a 48 bit dng file, the control over colour, highlight and shadow is huge. I doubt a lab would give you that even if the scans are first rate. My scans from a 6x6cm neg open up at over 400m at 16 bit. For me that is a compelling reason to shoot film in the first place.

Kevin.

www.treewithoutabird.com
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Kevin.

JonathanBenoit

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Re: Film scanning quality from 120 scans at pro lab ?
« Reply #7 on: August 21, 2011, 05:36:48 pm »

It's not wether they are good or bad but do they do what you need.
I scan 120 colour neg and get a 48 bit dng file, the control over colour, highlight and shadow is huge. I doubt a lab would give you that even if the scans are first rate. My scans from a 6x6cm neg open up at over 400m at 16 bit. For me that is a compelling reason to shoot film in the first place.

Kevin.

www.treewithoutabird.com

Interesting. How do you scan to .dng?
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Bart_van_der_Wolf

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Re: Film scanning quality from 120 scans at pro lab ?
« Reply #8 on: August 22, 2011, 09:23:06 am »

Interesting. How do you scan to .dng?

VueScan can output DNG files (although I don't recommend it), maybe there are others.

Cheers,
Bart
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bcooter

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Re: Film scanning quality from 120 scans at pro lab ?
« Reply #9 on: August 22, 2011, 02:27:51 pm »

VueScan can output DNG files (although I don't recommend it), maybe there are others.

Cheers,
Bart

All the labs mentioned are good, though I've never seen better, cleaner scans than Nancy Scans.

http://www.nancyscans.com/



IMO

BC
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revaaron

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Re: Film scanning quality from 120 scans at pro lab ?
« Reply #10 on: August 22, 2011, 02:32:57 pm »

Film is in a very strange place right now.  The new films are phenomenal and are breathing new life into amazing camera systems like Contax and the use of film.  The problem is the scanners or an economical and high quality way of digitizing your negs.  An amazing image on film is only as technically good as the scanner and the operator.  I'm thinking about a scanner right now because shooting medium format is crazy expensive when you take it to most quality labs.  Shoot 100 rolls and you've spent upwards of $4000 on average.  So why not get you're own scanner?  Well, because a good scanner costs a good bit of money.  Even a used Frontier can be had for $3500.  If you're dealing with weddings you need something that's high volume capable or scanning will take over your life.  Nikon is highly praised but stopped making their scanners so they're in demand, hard to get and expensive.  Kinda like Contax ;-).  There's a new one coming out from Pacific Image called the Primefilm 120 but I haven't heard of anyone who has one yet but it'll be great if it turns out to be a great performer.  There are some amazing scanners from other manufacturers like Hassy/Imacon but you'll pay through the nose for it.  Anyway, hope this helps and just my opinion.

1) new films are adjusted for the digital making them sharper and more contrasty, but I find that this makes them noisier and more matte looking when you zoom in on them.

2) I have the nikon cool scan 9000 ED and I find that I wish I bought the 5000 model and then a used low-end drum scanner.  The 35mm/35mmslide scans that it makes are amazing, but I have yet to really get good quality MF out of it almost 100% because of user error and film curve. 

ianstamatic

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Re: Film scanning quality from 120 scans at pro lab ?
« Reply #11 on: August 22, 2011, 08:25:52 pm »

yes the great scanning dilema ...

I ended up buying a Howtek drum scanner and the Azrtec DPI Pro software. The software is awesome.
I get 500mb+ super detailed 4000dpi scans from the aztec. Wet mounting on the drum really reduces dust and artifacts.
There is a big difference going from 5-600mb down to 20-50mb scans.
If i didnt have the drum i would get a nikon 9000.

I bought a epson v700 for preview scans. It does a decent job even on 35mm. I scan at 2400dpi. the batch feature is good.with the drum i can load a whole roll on the drum, but normally just selects.
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KevinA

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Re: Film scanning quality from 120 scans at pro lab ?
« Reply #12 on: August 23, 2011, 04:54:23 am »

VueScan can output DNG files (although I don't recommend it), maybe there are others.

Cheers,
Bart
Yup Vuescan. I did not rate it at first but it was the easy option for my Coolscan 8000 and OS 10.xx and cheap. I have to say after getting to know it better, it is very good. I scan to .dng keeping everything fairly neutral. Then open in Photoshop like any Raw file.
Portra 160 scanned this way I think makes stunning images.

Kevin.
www.treewithoutabird.com
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Camdavidson

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Re: Film scanning quality from 120 scans at pro lab ?
« Reply #13 on: August 23, 2011, 08:24:07 pm »

Jon Olsen at NancyScans is a great guy.  The scans are well worth the additional cost.  They are super clean!
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