rz67 and sinar project need some insights

[bpepz]

Hi, I've had a rz67 systyem with lenses and digital back for a while now, I recently bought a sinar p to take advantage of more camera movements. I want to be able to use my rz67 lenses on the sinar. As far as mounting the lenses, that I can figure out even if I have to take out the camera mount from an old extension tube or broken rz67 body and bolt it to a lens board. At first I thought, "hey, I would need a shutter" and then I thought "wait! the rz67 lenses already have shutters in them!" but I quickly realized that there would be no real way of cocking the shutter or selecting a speed since the electronics from the rz67 are gone.  Unless I am missing something, it seems my only choice would be to mount it in something like a copal shutter. What do you guys think? I would still need to cannibalize the female part of the lens mount and somehow attach that to the copal shutter. Does anyone know if there are some kind of retaining ring or something that can go between the two that I can bolt together? I am fairly ignorant on large format stuff so far. Also I know I am probably not considering if having the shutter behind the lens would even work with the laws of optics since they were designed for a in lens shutter. Anyway, any insights you all might have would be greatly appreciated on this. Let me know if I am completely out of my mind on this.

[RobertJ]

Here's what you need (I think...):

You can make your own lens panel, or buy this: http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/475842-REG/Horseman_23527_Mamiya_RB_RZ_67_Series.html
It's made for Horseman, but Horseman boards fit Sinar (my Horseman boards fit my Sinar P perfectly).

And you'll also need the Sinar Auto Aperture Shutter, which comes in either f/4 or f/5.6 max aperture versions.  There's tons of them on Ebay (search "Sinar aperture"), but I don't know much about it.

This is what I think.  I've never tried to use RZ lenses on the view camera.

[bpepz]

cool, thanks for the info. but whoa! that rz/rb lens board is expensive! yeah I think I will make my own. As far as the auto aperture shutter, where exactly does it "go". Something is telling me it ends up in the rear standard but I could be wrong.

[bpepz]

also I should of asked, with the sinar auto aperture shutter, does anyone know how it connects to a digital back like a leaf aptus? for my rz67 I have a sync cable from the x sync on the lens to the digital back, would this use the same thing or is it something completely different?

[RobertJ]

The auto aperture connects to the back of the *front* standard carrier frame, and sits between the bellows and front standard.  You could probably flip it around and put it on the rear standard though, unless I'm missing something.

[TH_Alpa]

This is correct.

Thierry

The auto aperture connects to the back of the *front* standard carrier frame, and sits between the bellows and front standard.  You could probably flip it around and put it on the rear standard though, unless I'm missing something.

[TH_Alpa]

The sync is done with the little original x-cable delivered with each shutter (3 little pins on one side, going into the shutter socket, and normal female x plug on the other side).

Thierry

also I should of asked, with the sinar auto aperture shutter, does anyone know how it connects to a digital back like a leaf aptus? for my rz67 I have a sync cable from the x sync on the lens to the digital back, would this use the same thing or is it something completely different?

[Lightbox]

You can make your own lens panel, or buy this: http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/475842-REG/Horseman_23527_Mamiya_RB_RZ_67_Series.html
It's made for Horseman, but Horseman boards fit Sinar (my Horseman boards fit my Sinar P perfectly).

Whoa! That is the most over priced thing I have seen in many years! Good for a laugh anyway, its very simple to obtain a Mamiya RZ67 mount and bolt it to a lens board, depending on your setup you may need to mount it in reverse, as in the lens board on the inside of the front standard, or use a recessed lens board.

[bpepz]

is there any reason why I could not do this with a copal shutter instead? It seems the sinar auto shutter is really limited in shutter speed, something like 1/60 in most of them. Is it just more difficult to mount it all or would I be breaking the laws of optics? As far as aperture I am just going to use the aperture in the lens so I will always shoot with the shutter "wide open" while I stop down the lens manually.

[PdF]

Check out also the side of the Just Together adapters. Although they are not cheap, they are adapted to different configurations. There are several possibilities for the use of optical RZ-RB with a Sinar P or P2. But having never seen one in real life (Although they are German, they are not present at the Photokina, for example) , I can not say (or understand) how to adjust the aperture on the lens. So I would be very happy to take advantage of teaching someone who knows this system.

http://www.just-together.de/

PdF

[RobertJ]

Whoa! That is the most over priced thing I have seen in many years! Good for a laugh anyway, its very simple to obtain a Mamiya RZ67 mount and bolt it to a lens board, depending on your setup you may need to mount it in reverse, as in the lens board on the inside of the front standard, or use a recessed lens board.

Bolting a mount to a lens board doesn't always work out as planned, but yeah, most adapters are ridiculously expensive.

PdF: Regarding these adapters: http://www.just-together.de/adapter_en.htm , the one for RZ67 lenses on Sinar is more expensive than the Horseman version.  To use them with a digital back, they say on their ebay listings to use it with the Auto aperture.  That's really the only way. 

The reason they don't talk about using it with digital backs is because their stuff was designed for a DSLR system to be mounted to the Sinar, and a DSLR already has a shutter.

[bpepz]

for those not familar with the rz67 aperture mechanism, the aperture is selected on the lens, and is stopped down automatically when you shoot. Of course that will not work for me since it is not connected to the rz67, but, there is a DOF preview lever on each lens that stops the lens down to what ever aperture you select on the lens. Rigging something up to hold the lever in place would not be difficult.  also since I am using this only for still life and food photography I don't need alot of the other modern amenities like automatically stopping down the aperture and such.

[Lightbox]

I built this system a while ago which uses RZ lenses as I already had 3 in my bag and the glass is wonderful...





As you mentioned above I just select my aperture on the lens for the shot then use a rubber band to hold the DOF preview slider in place, then use the shutter on the camera. Great for shooting timelapse as you have a constant aperture and don't get "flicker" also good for shooting video with full movements available. So because the lenses are being used "dumb" you don't need to pay s*#tloads for a fancy lensboard, just shop around for something with the RZ mount that can be removed and fitted to a lens board. I guess your main issue is building a shutter into the system...

[bpepz]

wow thats a nice setup there. I am still agonizing over what shutter system to get. The sinar auto shutter would be the easiest for my purposes, but is limited to 1/60th on the ones I am finding on ebay, where as a copal #0 can go to 1/500th.

[bpepz]

you know I am also thinking between the different shutters, does the number of blades change the bokeh any? most ive seen are 5-bladed, I am also planning on using some of the digitar lenses and there are a bunch that are really priced well in DB mount which would work well if I went with the sinar auto shutter, but would the bokeh suffer from just the 5-blades?

[ondebanks]

wow thats a nice setup there. I am still agonizing over what shutter system to get. The sinar auto shutter would be the easiest for my purposes, but is limited to 1/60th on the ones I am finding on ebay, where as a copal #0 can go to 1/500th.

Couple of problems with that. First of all, the RB and RZ lenses use size #1 shutters, not size #0. Secondly, you cannot just stick a Copal type shutter behind the lens and expect to transmit all the light. There will probably be horrendous vignetting/cutoff. I've front-mounted 645 lenses onto one of the biggest LF-style shutters you can get, an Ilex #5, and that works ok, but I doubt it would work as well with the greater image circles of 6x7 lenses. This is why people are directing you to the very large Sinar behind-the-lens shutters, which are designed for this scenario.

Now for some of the more compact RZ lenses, where the optics are split into are 2 clean cells that thread into the front and rear of the shutter, you could unscrew the cells and remount them separately into a Copal #1 shutter - this recycles your RZ lenses, but does not exactly leave them intact! You would have created a new LF-style lens, that could be mounted onto a regular Sinar Copal 1 lensboard, and which is controlled (including aperture) directly with the Copal 1 shutter.

I've done this before, remounting 6x6 Bronica PS and 645 Mamiya leaf-shutter lens cells into #0 shutters and focusing assemblies from Mamiya Press lenses. This allowed me to shoot the nominally 6x6 and 645 lenses on more expansive 6x9 and 6x7 format film.

[bpepz]

Couple of problems with that. First of all, the RB and RZ lenses use size #1 shutters, not size #0. Secondly, you cannot just stick a Copal type shutter behind the lens and expect to transmit all the light. There will probably be horrendous vignetting/cutoff. I've front-mounted 645 lenses onto one of the biggest LF-style shutters you can get, an Ilex #5, and that works ok, but I doubt it would work as well with the greater image circles of 6x7 lenses. This is why people are directing you to the very large Sinar behind-the-lens shutters, which are designed for this scenario.

Now for some of the more compact RZ lenses, where the optics are split into are 2 clean cells that thread into the front and rear of the shutter, you could unscrew the cells and remount them separately into a Copal #1 shutter - this recycles your RZ lenses, but does not exactly leave them intact! You would have created a new LF-style lens, that could be mounted onto a regular Sinar Copal 1 lensboard, and which is controlled (including aperture) directly with the Copal 1 shutter.

I've done this before, remounting 6x6 Bronica PS and 645 Mamiya leaf-shutter lens cells into #0 shutters and focusing assemblies from Mamiya Press lenses. This allowed me to shoot the nominally 6x6 and 645 lenses on more expansive 6x9 and 6x7 format film.

ah! ok, I did not know that, I guess sinar auto shutter it will be then.

[PdF]

<<you cannot just stick a Copal type shutter behind the lens and expect to transmit all the light.>>

A Sinarcam 2 should be easily usable. And even better, with a device for mounting optics in reverse, between the back and the shutter (DBM) to perform comfortably focus at infinity. Only a few tweaks ...

PdF