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Author Topic: Epson 2200/4900 contrasting/bronzing?  (Read 3557 times)

Steve Kapalko

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Epson 2200/4900 contrasting/bronzing?
« on: August 05, 2011, 06:47:52 pm »

Please,
I'm interested in what may be called contrasting and/or bronzing when printing on various papers in both color and b&w.  The effect can be seen when looking at a print from the side.  I see this effect with prints on my Epson 2200 (Epson inks) whether printing on glossy or lustre paper (Epson papers).  It is definitely more pronounced on glossy paper.  I'd like to know if the Epson 4900 and it's associated inks are immune from these effects either entirely or to a large extent.
Thank You,
Steve
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Schewe

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Re: Epson 2200/4900 contrasting/bronzing?
« Reply #1 on: August 05, 2011, 07:50:50 pm »

Are you talking about "bronzing" or gloss differential? They are different...

Bronzing is the flashing of an actual bronze color when viewed at certain angles. Gloss differential is the difference in the gloss of the ink and the paper. Two different phenomena, but in answer to your question, compared to the 2200, both are substantially reduced if not eliminated since the K3 inkset was released. The HDR Ultrachrome inks (in the 4900) are even better. Depending on the paper, you still may see a tiny amount of gloss differential on really glossy paper but not so much on luster. I haven't seen bronzing for several generations of printers and certainly not on the 4900.
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Craig Murphy

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Re: Epson 2200/4900 contrasting/bronzing?
« Reply #2 on: August 06, 2011, 11:29:01 am »

With the price of the 4900 I would take the 2200 to the nearest dumpster as soon as possible or maybe use it to just print invoices etc. after you get your new printer.  Not that the 2200 was a bad printer but a major leap from it to a 4900.  
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CMurph

Steve Kapalko

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Re: Epson 2200/4900 contrasting/bronzing?
« Reply #3 on: August 06, 2011, 11:53:06 am »

Schewe,
Thank You.  The effect I am referring to is best described as You have . . . Gloss differential.  Is it expected that some amount of Gloss differential goes along with inkjet printing technology in general, or is it specific to certain manufacturers?

 :) Craig,
My 2200 has served me well for a long time . . . after I learned not to use it when the ambient temperature was lower than it liked.  I took it apart to clean it a couple of times before I learned my/the lesson.  It does quite well making canvas prints, which is mostly what it has been used for.  Lately, printing photographs has exposed the Gloss differential effect and I was hoping the 4900 would deliver me (my prints) from it . . . especially at the current price.

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Craig Murphy

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Re: Epson 2200/4900 contrasting/bronzing?
« Reply #4 on: August 06, 2011, 12:00:18 pm »

Yeah.  The 4900 price right now is very tempting.  I'm still thinking about it.  My 2200 stopped working.  Cleaned it once and it worked but then stopped again so I dumped it after a second cleaning try did not work.  I have a 9800 but would love to use a 4900 for just matte ink printing.  I print reproductions for painters (watercolorist, pastel painters) and those repros just don't look right on anything but fine art papers.  Hence MK ink.   
« Last Edit: August 06, 2011, 12:04:32 pm by Craig Murphy »
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BarbaraArmstrong

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Re: Epson 2200/4900 contrasting/bronzing?
« Reply #5 on: August 06, 2011, 01:29:41 pm »

The 4900 at the current reduced price is an awesome value.  Note that if you buy it locally, you will pay tax on the full original amount, rather than the reduced sale price.  At least, that was my experience.  (I like giving business to my local retailers to keep them in business.)  Still, a great value, and I am looking forward to being able to do longer prints from rolls -- the panoramas I've begun working with.  However, as to your issue with gloss differential on your 2200's, you should be able to mitigate this with the judicial use of added grain.  I began experimenting with this (using Nik ColorEfex Pro) when printing some casual shots I took at a friend's daughter's wedding.  I add 9 percent in each of the three tonal areas (lights, medium tones, and shadows) with a zero saturation.  This is less than Nik's default setting for each category.  The result is that the prints look less "digital" and there is an impression of increased sharpness.  You don't notice the grain; you just notice the improved appearance.  Be careful, however, in large light areas without detail, such as sky.  I was further encouraged about adding this to my work flow on most prints when I read on this forum about others also adding grain.  The experimentation with grain was for prints on my 3880.  For what it's worth, I also increase ink load 10 percent, with an increased drying time of 10 whatever-it-is (milliseconds?).  The idea of a sparse application of ink to the page never appealed to me.  I know how you feel about your 2200's, as I had two that died recently within months of each other.  But I got a 3880 a year ago, and when you hold up identical prints to compare between the 2200 and the 3880, you and any of your friends will say with the naked eye that the 3880 prints are sharper.  The 4900 has an expanded gamut and other improvements since the 2200, among them improved dithering algorithms. 
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Sven W

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Re: Epson 2200/4900 contrasting/bronzing?
« Reply #6 on: August 06, 2011, 04:40:09 pm »

Depending on the paper, you still may see a tiny amount of gloss differential on really glossy paper but not so much on luster. I haven't seen bronzing for several generations of printers and certainly not on the 4900.

And I add that some glossy papers handled it different; e.g. Harman Gloss don't show any differential but Canson Baryta does.
Printed on the 4900. Some printmakers use to always lower the highest whitepoint in the image to, say 250, instead of 255.
And "force" the printer to add some ink in the lightest parts. I seldom do that, because the gloss differential effect is not visible
when framed under glass.

/Sven
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Alistair

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Re: Epson 2200/4900 contrasting/bronzing?
« Reply #7 on: August 06, 2011, 05:30:40 pm »

...... would love to use a 4900 for just matte ink printing.  

Bronzing is not an issue with matt papers. At the risk of being soundly thrashed, I would suggest that, provided you are not printing over 13" wide, the difference between a 2200 and a 4900 on matt papers is not worth the entry price. He ducks.
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Alistair

BarbaraArmstrong

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Re: Epson 2200/4900 contrasting/bronzing?
« Reply #8 on: August 06, 2011, 05:44:55 pm »

No need to duck.  The sharpness difference I noted in my earlier post was on one of the nice PK papers (probably about 300 or 310 gsm) and at a print size of about 10" x 15".  The real problem Steve faces is that, given the age of the 2200, it is likely to die any day now, or any month now.  He should be thinking about what he wants next.  And if that might be a 17" carriage printer, he might want to take advantage of the current pricing on the 4900.  He could print long from rolls and get a better price/ml of ink, aside from other improvements by Epson in the several generations since the 2200.  Biggest benefit of the 2200, in my opinion, was its ability to print on small sheets.  I did my wedding invitations on it on nice Crane paper.  So Steve should be thinking whether it's another 13" printer he wants when the time comes, or something that can go bigger, but with the loss of smaller-sheet printing.
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Sven W

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Re: Epson 2200/4900 contrasting/bronzing?
« Reply #9 on: August 07, 2011, 04:40:49 pm »

Bronzing is not an issue with matt papers. At the risk of being soundly thrashed, I would suggest that, provided you are not printing over 13" wide, the difference between a 2200 and a 4900 on matt papers is not worth the entry price. He ducks.

I really don't agree about that! The HDR inks on the 4900 has a much larger gamut volume than the 2200.
The 4900 has the Vivid Magenta, Vivid Light Magenta, Orange and Green added to the 2200 inkset.
And you certainly see the different on a MK paper, e.g. Hahnemühle PhotoRag.
I would say that's a big leap forward for printmakers like Craig, printing art reproductions. It's definitely worth the money.

/Sven
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Schewe

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Re: Epson 2200/4900 contrasting/bronzing?
« Reply #10 on: August 07, 2011, 04:47:10 pm »

I really don't agree about that! The HDR inks on the 4900 has a much larger gamut volume than the 2200.

I agree...the total volume of color for the 4900 is really a lot larger than the old 2200 inks...the contrast range (D-Max) of the 4900 won't be a lot darker (I think it's a bit darker though–about 1.7-1.75 depending on paper) but the color in the 4900 will be a lot better, particularly dark saturated color.
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Alistair

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Re: Epson 2200/4900 contrasting/bronzing?
« Reply #11 on: August 07, 2011, 07:34:51 pm »

I agree...the total volume of color for the 4900 is really a lot larger than the old 2200 inks...the contrast range (D-Max) of the 4900 won't be a lot darker (I think it's a bit darker though–about 1.7-1.75 depending on paper) but the color in the 4900 will be a lot better, particularly dark saturated color.

Fair enough Sven and Jeff. I do not have an x900 printer, only x880. But I was looking at some prints I made about 6 or 7 years ago on a 2200 on matt paper and I thought; dam they look good - what am I wasting money on all these equipment upgrades for? Ok, the subject matter was not particularly demanding regarding gamut but sharpness and general colour are plenty good. Advances no doubt have been made but I am not so sure we are talking leaps and bounds here.
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Alistair

Schewe

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Re: Epson 2200/4900 contrasting/bronzing?
« Reply #12 on: August 07, 2011, 08:11:51 pm »

Advances no doubt have been made but I am not so sure we are talking leaps and bounds here.

In terms of total volume of color (how saturated a color can be in the print) yes progress has been made with the Ultrachrome HDR ink set. Kinda have to see it to believe it. But I do...
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Steve Kapalko

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Re: Epson 2200/4900 contrasting/bronzing?
« Reply #13 on: August 10, 2011, 11:16:24 am »

Thank You all for your discussion and comments.  It appears the effect I'm experiencing is probably gloss differential and seems to be caused, mitigated or eliminated by several factors.  I will experiment, as all of you have, with the various suggestions and find what best suits my situation(s).  Thanks to all of You, I now have an understanding of the problem and a path to follow.
Thank You,
Steve
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Wayne Fox

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Re: Epson 2200/4900 contrasting/bronzing?
« Reply #14 on: August 10, 2011, 06:59:25 pm »

The 4900 at the current reduced price is an awesome value.  Note that if you buy it locally, you will pay tax on the full original amount, rather than the reduced sale price.  At least, that was my experience. 
Not sure where you are buying your printer, but this rebate is not a mail in rebate, and in fact Epson requires no paper work.  As a dealer, we are credited the $1,000 against the price of the printer when we purchase it, so there never is any "rebate".  When we sell the printer, we simply invoice it based on this "reduced wholesale price".  So you should only be paying tax on the actual amount.

Even though they are calling it a "rebate" it probably more accurately could be called a temporary price reduction.
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BarbaraArmstrong

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Re: Epson 2200/4900 contrasting/bronzing?
« Reply #15 on: August 10, 2011, 11:09:45 pm »

Wayne, Thanks for your response.  I discussed this with a salesman after the sale, and he insisted it was a rebate.  I'll talk with a manager.  Your feedback helped.  --Barbara
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BarbaraArmstrong

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Re: Epson 2200/4900 contrasting/bronzing?
« Reply #16 on: August 18, 2011, 05:22:26 pm »

This is a follow-up to Wayne's post about the tax on the transaction.  Turns out, after talking with both the store manager and the Washington State tax people, that in Washington State the tax is on the full original amount.  And I made abundantly clear to the state tax office the nature of the transaction.  Turns out this is one of their ways of making up for the lack of a state income tax.  I do have to say I have appreciated the lack of a state income tax, but we do pay on sales.
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Wayne Fox

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Re: Epson 2200/4900 contrasting/bronzing?
« Reply #17 on: August 18, 2011, 11:15:18 pm »

This is a follow-up to Wayne's post about the tax on the transaction.  Turns out, after talking with both the store manager and the Washington State tax people, that in Washington State the tax is on the full original amount.  And I made abundantly clear to the state tax office the nature of the transaction.  Turns out this is one of their ways of making up for the lack of a state income tax.  I do have to say I have appreciated the lack of a state income tax, but we do pay on sales.
Odd, because when we sell a 4900, the full original amount right now that is on the invoice is $1495 (well that's if we sold it at full "suggested retail").  We do not have to submit any paperwork to Epson, the rebate is just a marketing term, in reality there is no rebate.  Just like a car dealer who decides to sell a car at less than the sticker price because the manufacturer gave them a discount, and then only charges sales tax on what they sell the car for.  so it isn't a rebate, the dealer is buying the printer at a discounted wholesale price and then just charging less.

If it was a true rebate (the dealer had to sell it and then apply for a $1000 refund from Epson) I could see it because they would have to invoice the full amount to quality for their rebate.  Typically when Epson does this they make the customer apply for the rebate so again it is a true rebate, the dealer doesn't really have anything to do with it. I know they don't want to give in on this but in reality it just seems they are stretching their own interpretation here but they might really be wrong.

And your right, taxes are taxes, and every state gets their pound of flesh.  States with no income tax have higher sales and property tax rates, etc.
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