Is BC Timeless worth premium $$ over Glamour II?

[davidby]

I've been using Glamour for quite a while, and it seems to work fine. When you consider that Timeless is both more expensive and less concentrated than Glamour (20-50% dilution recommended depending on application method), it costs quite a bit more.

Anyone have a convincing argument to validate the much higher cost?

David

[neile]

There are lots of posts in this forum about Timeless, and many people preferring Glamour II for various reasons. If you search for "timeless" in the search box up top of the page you should come up with a bunch of good reading.

Neil

[davidby]

Thanks Neil.

I did do a search before my post and found plenty of info on the pros and cons of the two finishes with regard to application methods and problems. What I haven't seen is a comment from someone who switched from Galmour 2 to Timeless that justifies the premium price (about 30% after dilution) in terms of superior results...

David

[ftbt]

Perhaps the reason for the "premium price" is that Timeless is advertised as as "100+ years archival certified" (http://www.breathingcolor.com/bc/catalog/includes/BC_QualityCertificate_Timeless.pdf) and Glamour II is not.

[John Nollendorfs]

Certified to not fade in 100 years of "Blue Wool" testing? What does this tell you about the coating though?

All these water based vinyl acrylics come from Rohm & Haas' original Rhoplex formulation. Some formulations add thickners and or UV inhibitors.

You can buy the same type product a lot cheaper from Rosco, -- Clear Acrylic Transparent Gloss Glaze or Matte. (dilute 1 to 1 for use) (I'm not affiliated)

I've been using these products for nearly 2 years, sprayed through a cheapy Wagner. I did a south window test for 5 summer months here in Nebraska. The only problem was the UV brightner in the canvas I tested faded within a month. Colors all looked fine compared to the control.

I don't mind a company making money, but the  markup of Timeless and Glamour, is really way over the top.

[ftbt]

...  the  markup of Timeless and Glamour, is really way over the top.

Agreed. Will have to Rosco a try.

[davidby]

John,

What brand of veneer do you use and where do you get it?

Thanks,
David

[KenBabcock]

I found a place recently that is about an hour away from me where a gallon of Glamour 2 and Timeless are $89 CDN.  This beats the $140 I've been spending on Eco Print Shield by $51 + 13% tax = almost $58 difference.

I'd be worried about the longevity of Rosco plus any issues with cracking.  Obviously the Eco Print Shield and Timeless have UV inhibitors and you pay extra for the security that your topcoat will protect from the sun.

[John Nollendorfs]

Well the only testing I can attest to on the Rosco products, is my personal experience and no issues with cracking or anything else in nearly 2 years of use.

Also, if you have a theatrical supply house near you that stocks Rosco products (Think theatrical gels etc.) it's convenient to buy locally. It sells for $39.95/gal. and you dilute it 1 to 1 with water for spraying. (read the label!) Don't ship it during the winter when there is a possibility of freezing! For the price, I think it's worth considering and running some personal tests and posting here. (isn't this forum a place to exchange ideas?) Again, I think everyone is entitled to make money, but 2x to 3x the "normal retail" price is outrageous!

I print on IJ water resistant canvas unbrightened. Stretches great! Printed on HP Z3100.

[KenBabcock]

I don't spray; I roll.  Not sure if the 1:1 dilution would still apply.

What are the fumes like, John?  With Eco Print Shield there are absolutely almost zero fumes.  You could almost drink the stuff.  I wonder how Rosco compares in relation to fumes and toxicity. 

I might try it just to see, but I don't like using unverified materials with paying customers.  I don't want a line of people at my door in a few years complaining and asking for reprints.  If that happened I wouldn't have saved a penny.  It's nice knowing that in 9 years of printing I have never once ever had a customer ask for a reprint.  I'm just wondering how long the Rosco will actually last and right now nobody knows the answer unfortunately.

[MHMG]

Perhaps the reason for the "premium price" is that Timeless is advertised as as "100+ years archival certified" (http://www.breathingcolor.com/bc/catalog/includes/BC_QualityCertificate_Timeless.pdf) and Glamour II is not.

Conceptually, the UK Fine Art Trade Guild lightfastness test is not a bad test. It holds any fading in any colors and tones in the finished artwork up to a standard of being "less noticeable" than the fading of a Blue Wool #6 patch.  The Blue Wool standards have had a venerable history of use in the textiles and museum communities (but it's time to move on to instrumented approaches for light exposure measurements). Published Data on BW#6 (UV energy filtered out) indicates just noticeable fade at 100 megalux hours of accumulated exposure. You can thus use that 100 Megalux hour exposure dose as a figure of merit when looking at test results for digital systems (printer/ink/media/coatings) in the Aardenburg Imaging & Archives light fade database. Evidently, the UKFATG assumes 100 megalux hours of light exposure takes 100 years to complete under "real world" conditions. It would indeed if your average daily 12 hour dose of illumination is about 225 lux. If the artwork is in a brighter display area, the fade will occur sooner. Likewise, if lower, the fade will take longer. To put that in even more perspective, art on display, even in a single home setting, can average anywhere from less than 10 lux to >1000 lux illumination for 12 hours per day. It all depends on where in the typical home you decide to display the work.

All that said, Please read the details of the UK Fine Art Trade Guild test carefully (even as written in the Breathing Color certificate). It's a systems test where the artist must submit a copy of the finished artwork (which includes, for example, specific image content, inks, media, coatings, and anything else that went into the finished work) for light fade testing.  Hence, no media manufacturer can guarantee that the artist's finished work will pass this test as the test is intended. About all the media manufacturer can say is, "our media whitepoint lightness and color retention by itself won't be the reason for failure in the UKFATG test".  What the media manufacturer can't guarantee is whether there will be other undesirable interactions between media, inks, and coatings that would indeed be cause for failure in UKFATG test. And unfortunately, that's ultimately where the rubber meets the road.

cheers,
Mark
http://www.aardenburg-imaging.com

[deanwork]

The reason I use it is because it drys extremely fast. I can coat and roll up a canvas within an hour. I've never been able to come close to that before.

john

[John Nollendorfs]

Everyone I've communicated with has sprayed the Rosco. Generally 2 to 3 heavy to medium coats. (generally spray a second coat after "milkiness" goes away, 5 minutes) After dilution, it is quite thin. Very low in smell, comparable to any latex paint. Coating is very forgiving, in case of "runs" (I spray on a vertical wall) I merely dab with a clean paper towel. I've never tried rolling application, again, the milky mixture is quite runny. The gloss Rosco is much thinner than the matte Rosco, which probably has a thickening agent added to keep the matting agent in suspension. They are both milky in appearance. Dilution with water is required, or they may dry with a milky appearance. (have never had a milky drying problem, I always dilute) You can mix the gloss with the matte. I generally mix at 3 parts gloss with one part matte. The matte is VERY matte! (too matte for my preference)

It drys quite quickly, depending on humidity conditions. I've found it dry to the touch within 10 to 15 minutes, but let it sit for an hour or more before rolling up. I've stretched canvas' within a couple of hours.

As with any vinyl acrylic, the coating must "cure". Do not put canvas' face to face until fully cured or they easily can stick together. (I've had that happen with canvas' that have been allowed to dry for 3 days)

Do not try and hasten drying with heat! Read the label on the can for full information.

Hope this gives everyone enough information if they are interested in trying.