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Author Topic: Recurring flaws in Epson Exhibition Fiber 24 x 30 sheets  (Read 4165 times)

VeloDramatic

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Recurring flaws in Epson Exhibition Fiber 24 x 30 sheets
« on: July 27, 2011, 01:42:13 pm »

I know it's been reported by users of EEF that the paper is prone to scratching and damage after the fact, but I've recently encountered a number of sheets that exhibit what I'll call "micro-scratches" right out the box. I love EEF and with the recent arrival of a new 9890 I looked forward to bumping my maximum sheet size up to 24 x 30 from 17 x 22. I'm on my fourth box of this large size of EEF and I've already sent one of the boxes back to my supplier DTG with unprinted and printed sheets demonstrating the problem (thanks DTG). It's actually a little easier to see the scratches in the midtones of a print than it is on the unprinted sheets but they are definitely present before printing. I've not seen (or noticed) this flaw in 17 x 22 EEF, which leaves me wondering if this is just a temporary production problem that's affected the run of the paper I'm working through, or if there's something about the processing and packaging of these very large sheets causing the issue.

The micro scratches run parallel to the long axis of the sheet which could be consistent with some small particles adhering to the surface of the calendaring rollers when the surface coating is being laid down. Since ultimately all EEF originates from large rolls that explanation should produce micro scratches on all sizes of the paper (sheet and roll) after they are cut. If instead it's something about the way the 24 x 30 sheets are handled and packaged and this continues to show up in boxes of this size I will have switch papers (and I'd rather not because I've got EEF dialed in otherwise).

I'm interested to know if any of you using EEF have seen this problem in unprinted sheets, and if you have what size sheets has it affected.

thanks, scratching my head.

::Michael
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Randy Carone

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Re: Recurring flaws in Epson Exhibition Fiber 24 x 30 sheets
« Reply #1 on: July 27, 2011, 03:27:59 pm »

I've seen the micro-scratches on 13 x 19 and 17 x 22 sheets. The slight imperfections are not noticable when framed under glass but I'd rather that they weren't there at all. I have seen them on unprinted sheets as well.
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Randy Carone

MHMG

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Re: Recurring flaws in Epson Exhibition Fiber 24 x 30 sheets
« Reply #2 on: July 27, 2011, 05:15:02 pm »

You may not be seeing micro scratches. Rather, they may be micro cracks in the coating. Many high gloss microporous coated papers exhibit exceptionally brittle coatings that will crack with ease under low humidity conditions.  I've seen this microcracked surface effect in more than one batch of EEF, plus in low humidity conditions it can be easily induced with just a little flexing of the substrate in numerous other popular "traditional Fiber" papers like Hahnemuhle Photo Rag Baryta, Canson Platine Fiber Rag, etc. It's also something to contend with in some high gloss/luster RC inkjet photo papers (see this article for an example in a glossy RC inkjet paper: http://www.aardenburg-imaging.com/news.47.html)

Also, I now have light fastness test results where the fading of the pigments is preferentially increased along the micro crack line, so in the future, these microcracks may not be quite as 'invisible" when framed under glass as they appear initially.

Wish I had more comforting news! More research is needed.

cheers,
Mark
http://www.aardenburg-imaging.com

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VeloDramatic

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Re: Recurring flaws in Epson Exhibition Fiber 24 x 30 sheets
« Reply #3 on: July 27, 2011, 07:36:45 pm »

Thanks guys.

Mark, can you describe the "micro cracks" you are seeing... we may be talking about the same thing... the word crack makes me think of an irregular or jagged discontinuity in the coating, the problems I'm seeing are continuous and smooth trace lines. They also don't appear to go all the way through the surface of the coating and may not travel the full length of the sheet. If they are just scratches perhaps it's the back of the paper causing the problem when the sheets slide over each other during cutting/packaging. Even tiny abrasive particles adhering to the back of the next sheet could mark the surface of the one underneath. In this scenario bigger, heavier sheets would likely cause more of this damage (but this is all just supposition). The bottom line is it's frustrating to know a finished print has any visible flaws but worse when those flaws are on the paper before any ink has been laid down.

Your point about the possibility of differential fading is more worrisome.

I'll check on the office humidity.

::Michael
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MHMG

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Re: Recurring flaws in Epson Exhibition Fiber 24 x 30 sheets
« Reply #4 on: July 27, 2011, 10:53:31 pm »

Thanks guys.

Mark, can you describe the "micro cracks" you are seeing... we may be talking about the same thing... the word crack makes me think of an irregular or jagged discontinuity in the coating..


I'll check on the office humidity.

::Michael

Well, it's hard to diagnose without actually seeing a sample, but I would add that mechanical scratches tend to show jagged/abrasive components because the physically displaced coating material has to pile up somewhere, whereas microcracks which can occur in brittle coatings appear as very fine lines that propagate, sometimes in straight lines, but often with gentle curves (e.g. think of glass in a car windshield that starts with a small stone chip and then a crack eventually propagates from that point of impact over time).  In the article for which I gave the URL in my earlier post, it was flexing of the substrate by the technicians handling the prints as they came off the printer that induced the cracks I observed in the prints. The cracks were more severe than the fine cracks I've seen in EEF but the principle is the same. Also, in the EEF paper, the cracks I observed were there when I opened the package, suggesting they were induced during slitting and packaging operations rather caused by dry environmental conditions in my studio.

In very dry indoor humidity (e.g., wintertime conditions indoors in my home in the northeast US, I can literally both hear and see cracks forming if i pick up a sheet of say, HN photo rag Baryta, and flex it so that it is curled to about a 2 inch radius, in other words bending it much like the wrapping it requires to go around the 3 inch diameter roll core.  Fortunately, the manufacturer usually does these initial roll winding operations in moderate humidity controlled environments.  The cracking sounds I can induce under very dry conditions are extremely faint but think of a sound like "Rice Krispies" cereal makes when you put milk on it :D.  Lastly, if you take a conventional silver halide color RC photo paper you can usually crease it so tightly as to cause a permanent crease throughout the substrate, but if you look at the crease, the top coating still hasn't cracked. Try that with an older "peel apart" Polaroid print, and you will definitely induce cracking as well. Ditto for many of today's "photo type" inkjet papers. The old Polaroid prints had a Polyvinyl acetate (PVA) type of binder layer rather than the gelatine binders used in conventional silver gelatin prints. PVA and PVB are often cited in patent literature for use as a binding agent for the microporous particles used in inkjet compatible coatings. Thus, while we do have some historical precedents like Polaroid prints and Kodak Dye Transfer prints that demonstrate how some hygroscopic binder layers become very brittle in dry environmental conditions, the microporous particles also embedded in modern inkjet coatings make the brittleness tendencies of the coatings even more precarious.
« Last Edit: July 27, 2011, 10:56:18 pm by MHMG »
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Ernst Dinkla

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Re: Recurring flaws in Epson Exhibition Fiber 24 x 30 sheets
« Reply #5 on: July 28, 2011, 04:19:47 am »

Try that with an older "peel apart" Polaroid print, and you will definitely induce cracking as well. Ditto for many of today's "photo type" inkjet papers. The old Polaroid prints had a Polyvinyl acetate (PVA) type of binder layer rather than the gelatine binders used in conventional silver gelatin prints. PVA and PVB are often cited in patent literature for use as a binding agent for the microporous particles used in inkjet compatible coatings. Thus, while we do have some historical precedents like Polaroid prints and Kodak Dye Transfer prints that demonstrate how some hygroscopic binder layers become very brittle in dry environmental conditions, the microporous particles also embedded in modern inkjet coatings make the brittleness tendencies of the coatings even more precarious.

Mark,

I wonder whether the divide is between PVAs and Gelatine. Both come in certain hydrolysis grades and by that their flexibility and affinity to water is defined. I guess inkjet coatings contain more solids than analogue papers have. Both need the whitening agents but the inkjet paper also needs an amount of ink absorption minerals. I do not think the silver components were needed in that quantity and they probably behaved better in the coating. Polaroid peel apart positives when ready differ on more components. For instance the transfer chemicals that might harden the PVA later on. Your observation that along the inkjet coating cracks the fading differs to the rest is indeed worrisome. Increased gas fading + humidity changes a likely cause for that effect. If the microporous particles play a role there the papers that can load more ink (and usually pair that with a wider gamut) then should be checked first. The smoothest qualities of them with the coating compressed on heated satin/gloss cylinders even higher on the list.

Something I always worried about is the use of thin cores to decurl heavy curled papers fast, I prefer to keep them on thicker cores and give it time. Which is something that rings a bell; are the cracks in the packs more common than on the rolls for the same paper?


met vriendelijke groeten, Ernst

New: Spectral plots of +250 inkjet papers:

http://www.pigment-print.com/spectralplots/spectrumviz_1.htm
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Alan Goldhammer

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Re: Recurring flaws in Epson Exhibition Fiber 24 x 30 sheets
« Reply #6 on: July 28, 2011, 08:22:33 am »

Mark & Ernst,

Interesting posts and something I have always been concerned about as well.  It would be nice to know the particular compositions of the coatings so that one can make an informed judgement about what is exactly going on.  Analogue papers of the distant pass were also prone to cracking and there must be a delicate balance in the composition of the gelatin that was used just as there must be in the polymeric materials that are used today.  I did a real quick search of the US patent database and did see this patent from Kodak.  I'll see if I can find some others and try to get a better idea of the chemistry here.  I think this is also one area where matte papers would have an advantage over gloss papers.

The curl issue is also one that those of us who have sheet feed printers (Epson 3880) face since almost all papers can develop edge curls on storage causing head strikes.  Some brands are worse than others since it's dependent on the paper stock.  For example I see very little curl on all Museo papers (paper stock tends to be the stiffest of any manufacturer I am familiar with) and a lot on Hahnemuhle (only the matte papers).  Coated papers such as Ilford Gold Fiber Silk are fairly resistant to curl as well.

Alan
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howardm

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Re: Recurring flaws in Epson Exhibition Fiber 24 x 30 sheets
« Reply #7 on: July 28, 2011, 08:37:11 am »

I gave up on Fiba paper due to the curl and 3800 head strikes.

narikin

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Re: Recurring flaws in Epson Exhibition Fiber 24 x 30 sheets
« Reply #8 on: July 28, 2011, 10:25:35 am »

Interesting thread, spiraling out of the OP question.

For OP- sounds like mechanical scratches to me, EEF is notoriously fragile, I cannot print EEF rolls on an 11880 because of this, Epson themselves on seeing samples told me nothing can be done: give up on this material/printer.  I printed it on Canon 8300 and it was fine. So Epson paper on Epson machine - scratched. Epson paper on Canon - fine. Go figure

as for bigger issue of cracking coating:

I work larger sizes (up to 64x96") and obviously have to roll the finished prints for shipping/ storage/moving.  I use a wider diameter - more like a 4 or 5"+ core, in 8" diameter tubes but still... this is a worrying issue.  Is rolling face in, where the coating is compressed, safer than face out, where the medium is stretched?

On a practical level Mark, what papers on your shortlist exhibit good flexibility/ no cracking when handled?
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VeloDramatic

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Re: Recurring flaws in Epson Exhibition Fiber 24 x 30 sheets
« Reply #9 on: July 28, 2011, 02:58:29 pm »

Narikin,

Again just to be clear these scratches/cracks we are discussing are not caused by the printer, they are present in the paper before printing, and in my case the printing cycle is not exacerbating or adding to the problem.

::Michael
« Last Edit: July 28, 2011, 03:00:17 pm by VeloDramatic »
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ronmart

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Re: Recurring flaws in Epson Exhibition Fiber 24 x 30 sheets
« Reply #10 on: August 08, 2011, 04:18:07 am »

For kicks and giggles you can follow along with my walkthrough on this paper here and just double-check that you are doing everything properly for the platen gap height (it requires manual adjustment - and verify this every time you print - even with presets).

The other thing to be mindful of is when this paper rolls out of the printer while printing, you can not let it hang off the edge - it must stay parallel with the print head when printing or it seems to be more prone to scratches. Use books, reams of paper, etc... to build a bridge at the end of your printer if you must, but 24x30 sheets are pretty large so my gut tells me this is what you are really getting burned by here.

Ron
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VeloDramatic

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Re: Recurring flaws in Epson Exhibition Fiber 24 x 30 sheets
« Reply #11 on: August 08, 2011, 10:37:09 am »

That was a very thorough look at EEF Ron. I'm sure I remember reading that piece in the past and I agree that EEF is prone to post-printing damage, but this thread is about issues with the media right out the box, not a result of improper settings or poor handling by the user or printer (In my case a 9890 whose manual straight-through paper path full supports the sheet). Go back and read MHMG's response, I think this is the most likely cause of the flaws we're experiencing. Wish it was easy to photograph the problem... but the contrast difference on an unprinted sheet would be tough to capture. This is either a quality control issue or to MHMG's point an inherent issue with high gloss microporous coated papers.

::Michael
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