8 bit vs. 16 bit printing – any improvement at all?

[cybis]

Has anyone been able to observe any improvement at all when printing in 16 bit mode to an Epson printer on a Mac?

I did some test a while back on a 7900 and could not see the slightest difference no matter how hard I looked.
Maybe I was looking at the wrong place. I printed a bunch of large prints with long gradients and was expecting to see smoother transitions when using 16-bit, but both were identically good no matter how long and subtle the gradients were.

So what is the benefit of 16-bit printing? Is it more precise profiling capabilities? Finer details from a different dithering algorithm maybe?

Surely, there has to be a demonstrable difference however minute.

Thoughts?

[Scott Martin]

Try printing a really large granger rainbow - that's where you're most likely to see differences.

There is some question as to how high bit data is processed on printers. If 16 bit data is sent but the printer is only capable of processing in 8 bits then it's worthless. I wish some of these brands would come clean as to what on-board processing capabilities they have for which printers. True 16 data on-the-fly processing is super expensive so one assumes that smaller, lesser expensive printers won't have that for the foreseeable future.

[neile]

There's no benefit. See a blog entry I wrote on the subject about a year ago: http://www.danecreekfolios.com/blog/2010/7/6/is-there-a-difference-printing-16-bit-instead-of-8-bit.html.

We've also had several threads on this in the past, which I found by searching for "16-bit printing" on the site:

http://www.luminous-landscape.com/forum/index.php?topic=42675.0
http://www.luminous-landscape.com/forum/index.php?topic=53914.0 (this is the most useful, with very experienced folks chiming in also generally saying "no").

Neil

[Scott Martin]

I think it's important to profile 16 bit printing paths with a true, 16 bit profiling target (with 16bit patches and reference data) and generate a true, 16 bit profile. I've been doing so since 2006 and can see differences when I print with these true 16 bit profiles and switch between 8 and 16 bit modes in the Canon printing plug-in. As can my clients that I make profiles for. I suspect the reason most aren't seeing differences is because they are profiling their high bit printing paths at only 8 bits. FYI.

[digitaldog]

Yes, there can be a difference, see the discussion here recently: http://www.luminous-landscape.com/forum/index.php?topic=53914.40

At least using the Canon Export module, there is a visible albeit small difference.

[Sven W]

Yes and No.
Very subtle but visible differences with color printing on a high gamut volume system such as Ep x900 and a glossy paper.
And ImagePrint.

But for B&W it's obvious. Imacon 16 bit scans or 16 bit developments in CameraRaw, printed via ImagePrint on the same system as above, produce a lot more shades of gray instead of the tiny 256 from an 8 bit pipe.

/Sven

[cybis]

Try printing a really large granger rainbow - that's where you're most likely to see differences.

I did print large gradients (but not granger rainbow specifically) and couldn't see any difference. Others have printed large granger rainbow and AFAIK have not seen any difference.

There is some question as to how high bit data is processed on printers. If 16 bit data is sent but the printer is only capable of processing in 8 bits then it's worthless. I wish some of these brands would come clean as to what on-board processing capabilities they have for which printers. True 16 data on-the-fly processing is super expensive so one assumes that smaller, lesser expensive printers won't have that for the foreseeable future.

I'm with you there, I wish Epson could shed some light: what if anything does the 16-bit mode accomplish?

[cybis]

There's no benefit. See a blog entry I wrote on the subject about a year ago: http://www.danecreekfolios.com/blog/2010/7/6/is-there-a-difference-printing-16-bit-instead-of-8-bit.html.

We've also had several threads on this in the past, which I found by searching for "16-bit printing" on the site:

http://www.luminous-landscape.com/forum/index.php?topic=42675.0
http://www.luminous-landscape.com/forum/index.php?topic=53914.0 (this is the most useful, with very experienced folks chiming in also generally saying "no").

Neil

Neil, thanks for the summary. In those discussions, there are mentions of subtle, hard to see improvements.

for example:

... sending the data to the few drivers that can take all that data, its difficult to see a difference in all but the most demanding images (stuff with very smooth gradients). And then, you need to have your nose touching the prints.

I can't see any on a 7900 with the Epson driver (and my nose was touching the prints  )

[cybis]

I think it's important to profile 16 bit printing paths with a true, 16 bit profiling target (with 16bit patches and reference data) and generate a true, 16 bit profile. I've been doing so since 2006 and can see differences when I print with these true 16 bit profiles and switch between 8 and 16 bit modes in the Canon printing plug-in. As can my clients that I make profiles for. I suspect the reason most aren't seeing differences is because they are profiling their high bit printing paths at only 8 bits. FYI.

That makes sense. Thanks.

[digitaldog]

That makes sense. Thanks.

Just not easy when the off the shelf products produce 8-bit per color targets and more importantly references.

[cybis]

Yes and No.
Very subtle but visible differences with color printing on a high gamut volume system such as Ep x900 and a glossy paper.
And ImagePrint.

But for B&W it's obvious. Imacon 16 bit scans or 16 bit developments in CameraRaw, printed via ImagePrint on the same system as above, produce a lot more shades of gray instead of the tiny 256 from an 8 bit pipe.

/Sven

Sven, have you seen a difference between using the Epson driver in 8-bit vs. 16-bit on a x900? Or just between Epson driver 8-bit and ImagePrint 16-bit?

[Scott Martin]

Just not easy when the off the shelf products produce 8-bit per color targets and more importantly references.

Yup. It's nice to be on the cutting edge though.

[Alan Goldhammer]

Just not easy when the off the shelf products produce 8-bit per color targets and more importantly references.

Any program other than ArgyllCMS do 16 bit targets?

[digitaldog]

Any program other than ArgyllCMS do 16 bit targets?

We’ve made the request to X-Rite for i1Profiler. Maybe version 1.0.2?

[Scott Martin]

Any program other than ArgyllCMS do 16 bit targets?

Not that I'm aware of. I made my own with a little inspiration from Bill Atkinson's targets that you can see at http://www.on-sight.com/downloads/  Bill's targets, FWIW, are 16 bit and come with reference files - you could start there. ColorPort works well for 16 bit target creation and measurement.

We’ve made the request to X-Rite for i1Profiler. Maybe version 1.0.2?

Maybe 1.2 since 1.1.1 is current...

[digitaldog]

Maybe 1.2 since 1.1.1 is current...

Feels like 1.0.1. sometimes. My bad.

[Sven W]

Sven, have you seen a difference between using the Epson driver in 8-bit vs. 16-bit on a x900? Or just between Epson driver 8-bit and ImagePrint 16-bit?

I'm only printing via ImagePrint and its true 16 bit engine.
For a couple of years ago I tested printing a 60" long gradient from black to white, both in 8 and 16.
And there I see improvements, using the 16 bit over the 8 bit pipe.

/Sven

[cybis]

I'm only printing via ImagePrint and its true 16 bit engine.
For a couple of years ago I tested printing a 60" long gradient from black to white, both in 8 and 16.
And there I see improvements, using the 16 bit over the 8 bit pipe.

Thanks Sven. I did similar tests (looong greyscale gradients with all color management turned off) on a 7900 comparing Mac Epson driver 8-bit vs. 16-bit and found exactly zero difference.

Just to clarify, you saw improvements using ImagePrint 16 bit over ImagePrint 8 bit, correct?

[Randy Carone]

Cybis,

Is it possible to print 16 bit using the Epson driver?

[digitaldog]

,
Is it possible to print 16 bit using the Epson driver?

Under Mac OS X yes.