Pages: [1]   Go Down

Author Topic: IQ 180 LCC Issues (Cross Post from GetDPI)  (Read 4438 times)

ChristopherBarrett

  • Guest
IQ 180 LCC Issues (Cross Post from GetDPI)
« on: July 24, 2011, 11:44:10 am »

My introduction to the IQ180 was 9 days ago at 5am.  I didn't have a whole lot of time with it and I was trying to help lead a PODAS workshop at the time... so my testing was not in depth by any means.  I threw the 35mm XL on my Rm3d, shifted it 15mm to the left and let it fly.  The resulting LCC image was so frightening and that combined with reports on the forums caused me to drop the IQ180 from my consideration without further exploration. 

Now that I've got a few days off and am still haunted by the awesomeness of the IQ GUI, I've begun to re-explore that test.  The P65+ and the P45+ before it have been so good to me that I feel I owe the brand a little more generosity.

Now, again, this was with the Schneider Apo-Digitar 35mm XL (which everyone says should NOT be used with the IQ 180), the camera is shifted 15mm (5mm more than anyone should really EVER shift this lens) and there was no Center Filter.

The two images are captures from the IQ180 (left) and then the P65+ (right).  You'll notice I had the IQ180 ISO set to 100.  Why?  It was 5am and there was no coffee in sight!

I set the P65+ Light Falloff Correction to 56% because that's where I liked it esthetically (I typically back this correction off some to increase image depth).  The IQ180 Light Falloff Correction is set to 73% to achieve corner readouts comparable to the P65+.  17% more correction... not too bad.  It is obvious the IQ180 develops more fall off than the P65+ (which has more falloff than a P45+).

I would have absolutely no issues delivering either file to a client (if, ya know, it was a decent composition with better light).  The over-shifted composition with the new WAT LCC on the IQ 180 at 73% correction has no issues to my eyes.

So how do I feel about everything now?  I think I was too quick to dismiss the IQ180.  It does provide just amazing detail, nicer clarity than the P65+ and allows for Big Ass Prints.  This hasn't convinced me to trade in my P65+ right away, but it has convinced me to do more real world testing.  I especially want to see the difference with images that are inherently darker and see if corner noise is an issue.

I dig the little Schneider 35mm and I really love my 43mm and am not anxious to swap those out for the big, heavy and pricey Rodie HR's to solve falloff on the IQ180.  But if I can integrate the new back into my current kit, I think I'll be a happy camper.


*All conclusions and opinions above are purely subjective and I have been known to be wrong about shit on occasion.






CB
Logged

EricWHiss

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2639
    • Rolleiflex USA
Re: IQ 180 LCC Issues (Cross Post from GetDPI)
« Reply #1 on: July 24, 2011, 01:51:14 pm »

It sure seems like the 80mp chip has a lot more sensitivity to color casts and looses light toward the edges so its great to see your post here.  I've got an AFi-ii12 and have seen a color cast and more fall off on lenses I would not expect such as the rollei / schneider 90mm apo macro for example.   I don't have nearly the same CC with the same lens on the CFii-39MS, actually no CC at all even with the white and black points pulled all the way in, but I get large enough amounts of it on the aptus 12 to notice it even without making any adjustments.       

One point of note is that the color shift I see on this back is not symmetrical in that its weighted to one of the long sides of the frame plus has two heavy linear bands one on either short end.  We are not talking about a technical camera with movements here so the asymmetry of the cc has to be considered a property of the sensor.  Is it a problem that I can't work around?  No, but I am curious why they can't tune this out of the chip?  Maybe even with firmware updates?   

The big problem I have with that this CC is amplified with increasing ISO settings.  At iso 200, 400 and 800 the CC is very apparent even with retrofocal lenses (without any movements or tilt).

I wanted the extra resolution but realize now its not without cost in terms of workflow. 

 

Logged
Rolleiflex USA

Graham Mitchell

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2281
Re: IQ 180 LCC Issues (Cross Post from GetDPI)
« Reply #2 on: July 24, 2011, 06:53:25 pm »

There's definitely something strange going on, and I don't think it is a simple lens/sensor colour cast although it is related. Perhaps it's a calibration or profile issue. I believe all backs or back profiles will contain a generic lens cast calibration file and apply a correction on the fly. Perhaps this is not happening as it should but without knowing the exact data processing pipeline it's hard to know where to begin to diagnose the problem.

The sensor colour cast effect distorts RGB values with a fixed ratio. In other words, if the red and blue values are 20% down on what they should be at a given point on the sensor, and you are shooting a grey card in balanced light, you should record RGB values like 8,10,8 or 40,50,40 and so on rather than 10,10,10 or 50,50,50. The recorded R:G:B ratio is 4:5:4 in this case. The colour cast is corrected by applying simple gain of the right amount to the respective values. In this example, multiplication by 1.25,0,1.25. The upshot of this fixed ratio property is that all shades of grey captured at that point on the sensor are tinted, and all shades can be corrected by the one application of gain. (Shooting an LCC file works at a variety of exposures because the correction software needs only measure the ratio of R:G:B at each photosite, compared to the centre of the image, not the actual values.)

Here I simulated lens cast by graduating R and B falloff on one side and G falloff on the other. Note that light and dark values are all equally tinted.



This is where the 80 megapixel sensor issue becomes interesting. (I'm using a Leaf Aptus II 12 but the sensor is the same). The colour cast is not behaving in this way: lighter greys are being recorded correctly, but dark greys are being recorded as magenta or green, as if the back's performance curve looks something like this in the green parts of the image:



This is why the following two shots look so different (the one with the cast was 3 stops underexposed compared to the other, then pushed back up 3 stops):



Using LCC can not fix this, because as I already mentioned, the lens performance is fine at normal exposures so the LCC would apply very little correction. I tested this out anyway making an LCC profile in C1 and re-did a white background shot. Image on right is exposed 3 stops down at ISO 100 and pushed back up.



This is bad news because ISO 800 images are unusable (ISO 400 is not good either), and even pushing shadowy parts of ISO 100 files around will lead to unexpected tints.

I really hope Leaf can work this one out - it's a big issue for a $34K back.
« Last Edit: July 24, 2011, 06:55:57 pm by Graham Mitchell »
Logged

ChristopherBarrett

  • Guest
Re: IQ 180 LCC Issues (Cross Post from GetDPI)
« Reply #3 on: July 24, 2011, 07:51:30 pm »

Interesting.  Personally, I never shoot my P65+ faster than ISO 100.  Schewe likes to expose about a stop to the right on the histogram and then pull the exposure down for the cleanest shadows.  I've been playing with this myself and it has a nice look.  I expect to be putting more light on the sensor in future exposures, so this may all work well for my process.

It does all beg the question... is 80MP just too damn much?  Are photosites being shrunk so much that we're seeing diminishing returns in quality?  More testing and thinking to do...
Logged

EricWHiss

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2639
    • Rolleiflex USA
Re: IQ 180 LCC Issues (Cross Post from GetDPI)
« Reply #4 on: July 24, 2011, 07:51:36 pm »

Graham,
I think you are on to something pretty important.    M.R. in his review calls out that the profiles for the Aptus 12 are red in the shadow tones, and I've noticed something strange about the color shift with darker values too when shooting the stouffer step wedge which should be all grey but are not.   If you white bal on the white steps, the dark steps are off, and visa versa.  

Eric
  

Logged
Rolleiflex USA

Schewe

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 6229
    • http:www.schewephoto.com
Re: IQ 180 LCC Issues (Cross Post from GetDPI)
« Reply #5 on: July 24, 2011, 09:37:12 pm »

Schewe likes to expose about a stop to the right on the histogram and then pull the exposure down for the cleanest shadows.  I've been playing with this myself and it has a nice look.

Just to be clear, I do advocate exposing to the right as long as you don't actually clip highlight detail you will want to maintain. Yes, you can bring down and tease a lot of detail clumped on the highlights but if you expose too far to the right, you may clip important detail. Think of it more as expose for the shadows and process for the highlights–as long as you don't clip. And you might be surprised just how far to the right you can go without clipping...
Logged

ChristopherBarrett

  • Guest
Re: IQ 180 LCC Issues (Cross Post from GetDPI)
« Reply #6 on: July 24, 2011, 11:22:15 pm »

Yeah.... what Jeff said.
Logged

archivue

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 417
Re: IQ 180 LCC Issues (Cross Post from GetDPI)
« Reply #7 on: July 25, 2011, 02:40:54 am »

i totally agree with you except that doing architectural photography with the sun of south of france... clipping arrives quickly... too much contrast !

it all depends on shooting style, environment, color of the subject and all !

it happens some time that i shoot one frame for highlights recovering and one the way you do... but this increase post production again !
 yesterday i've shoot one interiors that requires 16 shots for one single pics at the end...
Logged
Pages: [1]   Go Up