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Author Topic: Advanced info about b&w printing with Epson 9880 and 9890  (Read 15812 times)

TylerB

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Re: Advanced info about b&w printing with Epson 9880 and 9890
« Reply #60 on: July 29, 2011, 06:05:27 PM »

Thank you Terry for a great post. There is indeed a universe of wonderful things going on in the world of ink and B&W, just as there has always been a unique, committed, and masterful community involved in B&W before digital.
Tyler
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MHMG

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Re: Advanced info about b&w printing with Epson 9880 and 9890
« Reply #61 on: July 30, 2011, 01:17:15 AM »

ABW uses colour inks in addition to black (K), to create a neutral print. The can lead to metamerism, and also impact print light-fastness. Using QTR to directly control K, and to purposefully choose which colours to add and by how much, can improve on this.


Except that in some cases monochrome ink sets rely on additions of color pigments blended directly into the ink formulation in order to achieve visually neutral grays or near gray tones. In this situation with respect to lightfastness (not other properties) it seems to matter only from an academic rather than practical perspective whether the blending of additional colorants to achieve the desired final tint takes place in the ink formulation or later as the result of extra color droplets being jetted by the printer nozzles.  True carbon black is typically more brown in tone than neutral when ground to the fineness needed for inkjet nozzles. To neutralize this naturally brownish tint, other color pigments like cyan and magenta can therefore be inserted into the total ink formula, or added by the printer driver during printing. Hence, third party "full monochrome" ink sets may seem in theory to be more lightfast but often in practice are less stable than their OEM B&W printing mode counterparts because the chosen magenta pigments, for example, are less stable than the ones used in the OEM inks.  One really needs to test the printer/ink/driver/media/coating combination to know for sure. In my tests, numerous monochrome inkjet prints show early stages of light fading that is on a par with "traditional" color photos. They settle down and perform better than color prints over larger light exposure doses, but nonetheless should be treated as only moderately lightfast by discriminating collectors who might be concerned with delicate hue and tonal retention in the print over time.

regards,
Mark
http://www.aardenburg-imaging.com
« Last Edit: July 30, 2011, 01:22:34 AM by MHMG »
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digitaldog

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Re: Advanced info about b&w printing with Epson 9880 and 9890
« Reply #62 on: July 30, 2011, 01:36:19 PM »

ABW uses colour inks in addition to black (K), to create a neutral print. The can lead to metamerism...

Can leas to metamerism?  Two (2) samples with different spectra compared to each other with a given set of viewing conditions, producing a match?
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Andrew Rodney
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Re: Advanced info about b&w printing with Epson 9880 and 9890
« Reply #63 on: July 30, 2011, 05:21:09 PM »

Hence, third party "full monochrome" ink sets may seem in theory to be more lightfast but often in practice are less stable than their OEM B&W printing mode counterparts because the chosen magenta pigments, for example, are less stable than the ones used in the OEM inks.

Thanks for bringing this up Mark. I think the decision in this case would be based on aesthetics and/or relative ease of use.

My comments were made with HP's PK in mind, and using it as a neutral base for creating a dilute monochrome set. HP's PK seems quite "lightfast" and it remains relatively neutral as it fades.

Terry.
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Light Seeker

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Re: Advanced info about b&w printing with Epson 9880 and 9890
« Reply #64 on: July 30, 2011, 05:32:34 PM »

Can leas to metamerism?  Two (2) samples with different spectra compared to each other with a given set of viewing conditions, producing a match?

From the ColorWiki. . .

Metamerism - "The phenomenon by which two materials that match under one circumstance appear different to different viewers or under different lighting. Metameric mismatch occurs when tristimulus values are the same but spectral characteristics are not."

Ernst Dinkla has been on a crusade to see the term "colour constancy" used, rather than "metamerism". I had considered putting both in but unfortunately, colour constancy was left out when I hit "Post".

Terry.
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Light Seeker

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Re: Advanced info about b&w printing with Epson 9880 and 9890
« Reply #65 on: July 30, 2011, 05:35:33 PM »

There is indeed a universe of wonderful things going on in the world of ink and B&W, just as there has always been a unique, committed, and masterful community involved in B&W before digital.

Things have simply moved from chemical mixing to ink mixing.   ;)

Terry.
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digitaldog

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Re: Advanced info about b&w printing with Epson 9880 and 9890
« Reply #66 on: July 30, 2011, 05:52:05 PM »

From the ColorWiki. . .
Metamerism - "The phenomenon by which two materials that match under one circumstance appear different to different viewers or under different lighting.

Correct (and what I wrote). But in the context of the print, what two materials were you referring to?

Taking a print and having it appear differently when moved under a different illuminants wouldn’t be metamerism and think the term Ernst is referring to in this example is color inconsistency. Metameric failure would be accepted by some as well.

Without metamerism, we’d be in bad shape (how would say a display and a print, or a contract proof and press output match?)
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Andrew Rodney
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Re: Advanced info about b&w printing with Epson 9880 and 9890
« Reply #67 on: July 30, 2011, 06:02:08 PM »

Taking a print and having it appear differently when moved under a different illuminants wouldn’t be metamerism and think the term Ernst is referring to in this example is color inconsistency. Metameric failure would be accepted by some as well.

I was commenting on colour inconsistency / metameric failure.

Terry.
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Ernst Dinkla

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Re: Advanced info about b&w printing with Epson 9880 and 9890
« Reply #68 on: July 31, 2011, 07:16:37 AM »


Taking a print and having it appear differently when moved under a different illuminants wouldn’t be metamerism and think the term Ernst is referring to in this example is color inconsistency. Metameric failure would be accepted by some as well.


Some color gurus on another list became quite aggressive in their messages when "metamerism" was used loosely.. So I started to describe it as "color inconstancy to different light sources".  Which is the formulation that covers the practice of taking just one sample/print from one light to the other by one observer. As it will not be understood by the common print maker I add "metamerism" next to it on other lists. Would an abbreviation like CI*^ be short enough for the lazy ones and suggest "authority" on the subject ?  I think the term "metamerism" has those qualities so will be hard to get rid off.

With a B&W print (= varying value/tone, same hue, same chroma/saturation) I think that there is a condition that comes close to the "two (or more) samples matching to one light source for one observer", or "two (or more) samples not matching to one light source for one observer", which is roughly what metameric match, metameric failure to  light, stand for. That point of view was supported by some (actually off line, with references to research done)  in the discussion that became so aggressive. The fact that a color deviation is much easier to see in B&W prints than the same deviation is in color prints is a sign that our eyes have a reference in B&W prints that they do not have in color prints. Which is getting close to the metameric conditions. Print areas that only differ on value/tone are a good reference. An overall color shift will not be so easily discriminated but one tone range deviating in hue from the rest will be seen immediately. The same can be seen in pictures where only the hue varies or where only the saturation varies. Odd ones, I know but a good friend made some 40 years ago (Munsell book next to the easel) so I was familiar with them before they became available with a few steps in Photoshop.


met vriendelijke groeten, Ernst

New: Spectral plots of +250 inkjet papers:

http://www.pigment-print.com/spectralplots/spectrumviz_1.htm
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digitaldog

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Re: Advanced info about b&w printing with Epson 9880 and 9890
« Reply #69 on: July 31, 2011, 11:47:05 AM »

So I started to describe it as "color inconstancy to different light sources". 

I have no problems with the term (I like it). I suspect the sentence here was just missing the ‘in’ in front of the word consistency:

Quote
Ernst Dinkla has been on a crusade to see the term "colour constancy"

The only reason I brought this up (and questioned the use of metamerism) was so we can proceed using these proper terms or at least avoid using the term metamerism incorrectly (something I am guilty of doing in the wee past).
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Andrew Rodney
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