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Author Topic: How to Make an accurate profile for inkjet/solvent printers?  (Read 12503 times)

NWFAP

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  • Matthew S. - From NW Fine Art Printing
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Hello,

I'm a newbie to this forum, just getting into color profiling!

I have a small print house with a few inkjet printers (both solvent and aqueous). I've purchased I1Publish (with I11Profiler) and I run a WaSatch SoftRip for both types of printers. I'm struggling with getting accurate color prints. Can anyone provide me with instructions on how to make a VERY ACCURATE color profile? Here is the process I've been doing so far:

1) Print a 6 color (CMYK + O + G) unrestricted channel target that I've created in PS CS5 (with squares for each % from 1 to 100%).
1a) Print a total ink limit chart (0 to 600%) and evaluate how the inks are looking combined.
2) Determine and set what I think is the proper channel ink limit.
3) Print a 6 color linearization target from my WaSatch Rip PS files.
4) Scan with my EyeOne Pro the densities of the targets and create color curves in my Rip.
5) Print a total ink limit chart again and evaluate what the total ink limit I should use is (I use this limit in my profile making software i1profiler, NOT my WaSatch Rip - I leave that limit at 600%).
6) Create patches to print and scan for generating my ICC profile.
7) Scan into I1profiler
8) Use results and settings to generate a ICC profile.
9) Add profile back into imaging configuration in WaSatch Rip.

This process results in reasonable profiles, but nothing that is "Dead On" or a "true Match" when I compare the prints in my Judge 2 light booth with my Ezio CG2330 monitor (which auto profiles itself once a week).

Any one see something I'm not doing that will really make my profiles accurate?

Any advice helps!

thanks,

Matthew
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Lorenz

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Re: How to Make an accurate profile for inkjet/solvent printers?
« Reply #1 on: July 23, 2011, 08:51:40 am »

Hi Mathew,

I would recommend to limit the combined inks in step 5 IN THE RIP.

Cheers, Lorenz

PS doe you know that link (PDF version attached)?

http://www.wasatch.com/profiling_with_pss_tech_note.html
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Re: How to Make an accurate profile for inkjet/solvent printers?
« Reply #2 on: July 23, 2011, 01:19:31 pm »

This process results in reasonable profiles, but nothing that is "Dead On" or a "true Match" when I compare the prints in my Judge 2 light booth with my Ezio CG2330 monitor (which auto profiles itself once a week).

Well considering the probably large gamut disconnect here, the first thing is to determine of the lack of a true match is the profile, or the display/viewing conditions. And remember, a profile has two tables, one affects the soft proof, one affects the actual printed output. The rendering intent (and all the tweaks you can apply) play a role. So getting down to where the disconnect occurs is your first task.
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NWFAP

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Re: How to Make an accurate profile for inkjet/solvent printers?
« Reply #3 on: July 23, 2011, 06:55:08 pm »

Lorenz & Digital Dog,

Thank you for your feedback on this difficult topic! 

Hi Mathew,

I would recommend to limit the combined inks in step 5 IN THE RIP.

Cheers, Lorenz

PS doe you know that link (PDF version attached)?

http://www.wasatch.com/profiling_with_pss_tech_note.html

I've tried this before and I'm aware of the PDF link you posted.  If you read through the PDF you posted, on step four Wastach says t heir testing of where to put the total ink limit has shown better results if putting the total ink limit into your profile making software and not the Rip:

"Once a Total Ink Limit has been set, all patches above that percent on subsequent prints will be identical. For example, if set to 325%, the patches for 325, 350, 375, and 400 will all look the same.

In testing, Wasatch noticed improved results when the Total Ink Limit was applied within the profiling software rather than within SoftRIP."


Digital Dog:

Here is my goals/work flow. 

We have an advanced ordering software that properly handles assignment/conversion of a file's ICC profiles to Adobe RGB 1998.  So when we get a file from our ordering system added to our hot folder, it's already in Adobe RGB.  After printing, we take our print and put it into our Judge 2 Light booth (from GraytagMacBeth  which is now X-Rite:  http://www.rpimaging.com/store/light-booths/desktop/x-rite-judge-ii-s-viewing-booth.html)  and use the Daylight setting which has a 5000K light bulb for lighting.  We then open up photoshop CS5 and change the view of the file we are comparing to full screen (we have an EIZO ColorEdge CG222W - http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,2817,2340028,00.asp).  While you are correct there is a huge difference between our printers gamut capabilities and Adobe RGB 1998's gamut, we can also convert down to sRGB and compare at this level (also their is no noticeable color loss when converting properly from Adobe RGB 1998 to sRGB) and while 97-98% of our customers are happy with the color matches we offer, I'm still trying to improve our accuracy to please that last 2-3%. 

This is mainly motiviated by the fact that if I print a file using the manufacturer driver in photoshop, I tend to feel it's slightly more accurate then the profiles we make in house. 

I've hired "color gurus" to come in and make profiles before only to be disappointed, as they really don't do or know anything different form what I know/do. 

One thing I'm planning on trying is increasing the number of patches I print for my ICC profiles from 850 to around 3000 as I've been told that will improve my accuracy. 


Also, does anyone have any good training videos/literature on how to use I1Profiler.  I learned how to use it from one of my so called "Color Gurus" who really didn't teach me what all the settings meant/how to use the controls in I1profiler to maximize my profile gamut and accuracy. 

Once again any feedback is very helpful and appreciated!!!

thanks all!

- Matthew
« Last Edit: July 23, 2011, 06:57:29 pm by NWFAP »
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Matthew S.<br />Business Development<br /> G7 Expert

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Re: How to Make an accurate profile for inkjet/solvent printers?
« Reply #4 on: July 23, 2011, 07:26:59 pm »

Is this a GS6000?  I'm guessing based on comments you made in another thread.  If so, how are you printing "through the driver" via Photoshop?  The only driver that exists is a communications driver - it's not useful to actually print.

Just trying to understand the actual environment you've got there.
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Phil Brown

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Re: How to Make an accurate profile for inkjet/solvent printers?
« Reply #5 on: July 24, 2011, 12:18:01 pm »

While you are correct there is a huge difference between our printers gamut capabilities and Adobe RGB 1998's gamut, we can also convert down to sRGB and compare at this level (also their is no noticeable color loss when converting properly from Adobe RGB 1998 to sRGB) and while 97-98% of our customers are happy with the color matches we offer, I'm still trying to improve our accuracy to please that last 2-3%.

The differences in sRGB and Adobe RGB (1998) are primarily in the gamut of the green primaries so I don’t see how just dumbing this down to sRGB is making much of a difference overall.  

Quote
One thing I'm planning on trying is increasing the number of patches I print for my ICC profiles from 850 to around 3000 as I've been told that will improve my accuracy. 

Again, you are chasing your tail until you know where the miss-matching happens. Are you sure its in the output table of the paper profile?
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yannb

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Re: How to Make an accurate profile for inkjet/solvent printers?
« Reply #6 on: July 24, 2011, 01:45:49 pm »

Hello Matthew,

I've no specific  experience with the Wasatch Softrip, but have made quite a number of profiles for printers using various other rips. Here are some suggestions from my side.

- Do your initial profiling on neutral white media. Optical brightener agents will not make it any easier if good color matching is your aim. Depending on the amount of OBA's, you can expect different measurement results from either uv-cut or uv-included spectrophotometers

- Changing the rendering intent has a big impact on the output. The perceptual intent is where profiling engines differ most, and which you can influence most.

- When limiting the separate ink channels, do not be mislead by density readings, but limit the ink where the chroma no longer rises significantly. For the black channel, use L*. You can use Measuretool for this task, but there are other tools as well. If possible, include some secondary colors in your test files, to find out what the impact of your ink limiting is on them.

- For a CMYKOG printer profile, more patches are needed than for CMYK output. I use 1400-2000 patches for CMYK, so I'd certainly go for 2000+.

- A high level of GCR has a positive impact on the neutrality of the gray balance and ink usage. i1Profiler has a 'super GCR' called Full Scale Black, which yields very good results.

- When generating you profiling test chart and you intend to use a high degree of GCR, in i1Profiler you can anticipate this by giving preference to patches containing more black.

- Test your output profile using a known reference. For visually assessing the outcome of RGB files, I always use the Printer Evaluation Image file from OutbackPrint because it contains a lot of memory colors, has gradients, RGB gray, and patches to check highlight and shadow detail (see http://www.outbackprint.com/printinginsights/pi048/essay.html ). If the gray image in the middle does not look neutral, then your output profile may need to be rebuilt using other settings or remeasured. For RGB sources, I mostly use the perceptual rendering intent. There should be a good visual match between the printout and Photoshop.

- Another nice tool to test the output profile, is the Colorchecker 24 target (CC24). You have one in your i1Profiler box. Download an L*a*b* version of the file from brucelindbloom.com and print it. Compare the output to your CC24 card. You can also measure your own CC24 and recreate it in Photoshop. L*a*b* files print absolute colorimetric in most rips, so measuring the printed colors gives you an idea of how numerically accurate your profile is. You can use similar techniques for (Pantone) spot colors. Many customers in the wide format printing business claim not to need 'proofing grade' output profiles, but then they say they want accurate Pantone colors  ;)

- For CMYK source images, I do the visual testing with the AltonaVisual file (www.eci.org), of which I have good offset printed reference sheets, from standardized presses. For numeric accuracy, you can use either the Fogra MediaWedge, or the Idealliance 2009 strip. The idea is that you print this CMYK strip absolute colorimetric with the right reference profile (Fogra39 based, Gracol, ...), and then compare the L*a*b* values of the reference and sample. You can do this with i1Profiler too. Most solvent printers with their commonly used media will not pass the test, but the average delta E might give you an idea how reliable your output condition is

- Use the profile optimization scheme in i1Profiler. Although it's not the same as profile iteration techniques used in e.g. EFI Colorproof XF (= Fiery XF), this may be just what you need to get there

- If this all fails, try building a CMYK profile, or CMYKOG with less orange. I've read an in Agfa report on profiling CMYKOG printers that the use of the orange ink can cause visually too reddish skin tones, brown bricks that are too red ALTHOUGH the measured proof verification passes. Try matching an Epson x900 to an Epson x880, and you'll get the idea.

Should you have anymore questions, we're here to help  ;)

Regards,
Yann

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NWFAP

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Re: How to Make an accurate profile for inkjet/solvent printers?
« Reply #7 on: July 24, 2011, 05:35:04 pm »

Everyone thanks for the feedback!  I'm going to try and respond to eveyone's feedback in this post:

Phil:

Is this a GS6000?  I'm guessing based on comments you made in another thread.  If so, how are you printing "through the driver" via Photoshop?  The only driver that exists is a communications driver - it's not useful to actually print.

Just trying to understand the actual environment you've got there.

I'm using the WaStach Softrip 6.8 Epson Solvent Edition to print on several GS6000s, Epson SP9900s, and an Epson SP9880 (which is still in testing/profiling mode for our shop because we use it for Dye sub Printing and are struggling to make accurate profiles for dye sub metal transfers - so we aren't selling prints of this yet).  When I refer to printing "though the driver" via photoshop I'm really talking about medias for my SP9900s since I can compare color profiles made by my staff with WaSatch/I1profiler to profiles made my the media manufacturer.  Unfortunately media manufacturers only provide profiles for GS6000 media out of colorbust (or as I like to call it Colorbust) or Onyx Rip (which we have but don't use) so I'm not really able to compare color accuracy on the 6000s that well like I can in photoshop with drivers from manufacturers of aqueous medias.

Digital Dog:

I'm not sure what you mean where the disconnect is happening.  What I experience is this:

1) My staff makes an Image configuration in WaSatch Rip and an ICC profile in I1Profiler. 

2) We print a file for testing purposes and open the file in Photoshop.  Viewing the file under normal settings, and we make sure the Eizo monitor we use is calibrated with the software the monitor came with that automatically balances it.

3) Under visual inspection the print is VERY close in color accuracy, but it may be to light or to dark, may have a little brighter reds or greens than the monitor displays. 

I want to make my profile match the screen (which displays the file in Adobe RGB 1998).  I assume the monitor is profiled correctly and Adobe Photoshop is working correctly (since I can't really control those factors).  So I assume we just need to make a more accurate profile.  I'm assuming that printing more patches (possibly printing a special collection of different patches) would yield a more accurate color profile.  I assume scanning ICC patches is similar to a calculating an average. If you only use 5 numbers being averaged vs. say having 60 numbers averaged the calcualtion with 60 numbers would be more accurate to the average.  Again, maybe using certain patches would get a more accurate profile.  I don't know, just looking for tips on how to get more accuracy when using I1Profiler. 

Yannb:     

1) We only use OBA free media (including on our GS6000s) we test this by using our black light in our Judge 2 lightbox.  We also have a UV filtered Spectro. 

Good suggestion though!

2) We experiment with rendering intent a lot.  Our most recent "color Guru" recommended Perceptual and we also test with Relative Colormetric with BPC turned on.  Typically perceptual tends to yield the most accurate prints. 

Again Good Suggestion!

3) Thanks for the tip.  What should I do for the color channels CMYOG,  A* or B*? What is the "measuretool" and where can I get it, or do you recommend any other tools/software?  Can you proivde an example of how to include secondary colors in my channels?  I tend to print a chart going from 0-100% in 1% increments for the 6 color channels, what combinations do you recommend I add?

4) Exactly the type of feedback I'm looking for.  In I1profiler, is there a way to generate a collection of patches that is generates a more accurate ICM/ICC file or should I just use the default patches it generates?

5) What is GCR?  What you said sounds great, what do I need to do to get solid results on black grayscales?

6) Sounds good.  Is this the answer to my question in #5?

7) I do test with about 20 different test files similar to the one you recommend (I've also used that test file before), I also use Digtial Dog's test file (another contributor to this post).

8) Great tip, I'll add this to our testing procedures.  For Pantone colors, we use WaSatch specifically becuase it's not PMS certified.  We have found that using the PMS add on that comes with I1Profiler, we can input our created ICM file and get a list of CMKYOG vaules for each PMS color called out that won't match with our ICM.  We import that list via a .txt file and make color substitutions in he WaSatch Rip and the PMS colors end up coming out spot on.  MUCH more accurate then the Onxy Rip we have that we paid extra for to be PSM certified.  We typically test PMS colors with O21, 106, and other out of gamut PMS colors and are very pleased with the results.  It's just the matching of photos we print that we notice some extra colors are added to our prints that we don't see in the file (like too much green or blue or something along those lines), or the print colors are slightly to light or to dark...

9) Another great tip.  We typically don't print CMKY files, but I'll give it a good try.

10) Anoteher great tip.  I'm really interested in learning how to use I1profiler to it's maximum.  I was taught only the very basics, and I didn't really get any understanding of WHY I change some settings from the default, so this is great feedback for me.

11)I'll test this with our 9900s and 9880 (although we have SawGrass inks in the 9880 for dye sub printing so right now I can't test this).

thanks!!!

Matthew
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Re: How to Make an accurate profile for inkjet/solvent printers?
« Reply #8 on: July 24, 2011, 05:54:45 pm »

I'm not sure what you mean where the disconnect is happening.

The mismatch. Output profile (and if so, preview or output table, there are two per profile)? Display calibration? Print viewing conditions? All images mismatch the same way, same colors? You can’t fix the issue until you nail where the mismatch issue comes from.
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NWFAP

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Re: How to Make an accurate profile for inkjet/solvent printers?
« Reply #9 on: July 24, 2011, 09:22:26 pm »

Digital Dog -

Since I'm not able to "soft proof" my printer profile (because it's a six color channel profile I think - but if anyone knows how to get it so my profile shows up in soft proof in PS please share), I do:

Edit >> Convert to Profile >> Destination space - Multi Channel - ICC profile I created

With the preview box checked the image color on the screen is a dead match to what I print (so I'm assuming the output profile and what I print are correct as well as the calibration of the monitor).

But when I leave the image in sRGB or Adobe RGB sometimes I have a dead match, and sometimes the colors are just slightly different.  What I'm looking for are more scientific ways of creating profiles (rather than just eyeballing the ink limits/using the default patches I1profiler spits out) to improve my profiles that last 3-5%. 

And yes, I've done the ROI and since I'm super obsessed with quality it is worth my/my employees time to create a profile that is a dead match every time (if this is possible). 

So, I guess the mismatch is that my profile I create isn't 100% spot on... While it would be okay to provide my customers with our printer ICC profiles (so they can soft proof their images and do color adjustments), since we use 6 channel colors our customers are NOT able to soft proof (or at least I've not found a way at this time).  Also, I'd prefer that when I print an image in Adobe RGB that there is no color shift so if my customers get the output they expect (assuming they have a properly color profiled monitor). 

If I were able to:

1) Find a way to get it so it's possible to softproof my printer ICC profile
2) Have ICC profiles with no color shift from Adobe RGB

I'd be a happy camper for the rest of my days... Any help is much appreciated!

thanks,

Matthew

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Re: How to Make an accurate profile for inkjet/solvent printers?
« Reply #10 on: July 24, 2011, 09:29:00 pm »

Since I'm not able to "soft proof" my printer profile (because it's a six color channel profile I think - but if anyone knows how to get it so my profile shows up in soft proof in PS please share)

So, exactly why are you trying to do 6 color profiles? If you are printing out to either the Epson solvent printer or one of the pigment printers, you really don't want to profile them as 6 color devises...I'm not familiar with your rip, but when I used to use ColorBurst, the profiles started off as CMYK profiles after doing a linearization. Unless you need to hit spot colors, I'm not sure what 6 color profiles will be giving you other than complexity...
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