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Author Topic: MAC OSx Lion and printers  (Read 50433 times)

knweiss

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Re: MAC OSx Lion and printers
« Reply #80 on: July 10, 2011, 09:03:46 am »

But Lion doesn't include Rosetta so this doesn't help with the issue of running Legacy PPC software.

Correct, this was just a general answer to Mark's question. However, I hope that Apple will change the EULA for older OS X versions, too, now that they allow virtualization on 10.7 (Lion). IMHO it makes sense and helps a lot.
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Mark D Segal

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Re: MAC OSx Lion and printers
« Reply #81 on: July 10, 2011, 09:10:44 am »

As I wrote: I expect to be able to use a prof printer for 5-6 years (on a current OS version). A prof printer should become obsolete after 5-6 years and not by the release of its successor.

The 3800 will be five years old this coming November. But I agree with you - and I would go further - I think an eight to ten year life cycle of support would be reasonable in terms of the physical life and quality of these machines, but the manufacturers may be simply unwilling to spend the money on updating the software. Beyond some time period it would be reasonable for them to do this work and ask people to pay for the updates. But then they wouldn't be selling as many new printers.
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Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
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Alan Goldhammer

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Re: MAC OSx Lion and printers
« Reply #82 on: July 10, 2011, 09:15:12 am »

Why are new OS releases always is such a big surprise for some companies? The Apple developer program exists for a reason and IMHO it's not unreasonable to expect working drivers soon after the launch of a new OS version. At least that is what I expect from the brand of my next photo printer.
Given the plethora of complaints about Apple OS system upgrades over the pas two years on this forum do you think the problem is with manufacturers of printers and other hardware or is it with Apple's less than transparent policy of how upgrades are to be handled?  I you ask me it is the latter (but then I've been using Win7 and it's predecessors where there is backward compatibility).
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Mark D Segal

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Re: MAC OSx Lion and printers
« Reply #83 on: July 10, 2011, 10:11:41 am »

Alan, frankly it's a plague on all their houses. Coordination in this industry can be pretty dismal and the blame can be distributed all around. But much grief could be avoided if there were a standards group to which all the major players belonged having rules or guidelines about upgrade processes, information sharing and the duration of support to legacy items. Right now it's a jungle with each company doing as they see fit to maximize their own commercial interests.
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Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
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mfryd

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Re: MAC OSx Lion and printers
« Reply #84 on: July 10, 2011, 10:52:18 am »

Alan, frankly it's a plague on all their houses. Coordination in this industry can be pretty dismal and the blame can be distributed all around. But much grief could be avoided if there were a standards group to which all the major players belonged having rules or guidelines about upgrade processes, information sharing and the duration of support to legacy items. Right now it's a jungle with each company doing as they see fit to maximize their own commercial interests.

Companies need to balance their short term interests (make people upgrade) with long term interests (not pissing off their customers enough to get them to switch brands).

In the Windows world there are roadmaps for future development, and their is compatibility with legacy software.

With Apple, there has been no official announcement of when Rosetta will be going away, although everyone believes it will be next week.

With Windows, it's generally a safe bet that you have many years to recoup your investment in a printer or software package.

With the Mac you'd better be able to justify that investment in just a few years, as it may no longer work after that.

It's quite true that there is some software or hardware that you expect to replace every year.   When the core technology for your business is rapidly changing, it makes sense to upgrade frequently to stay on top.   It does not make sense to replace working support infrastructure (there is no need for me to replace my office chair every year in order to get the new model).

We don't need standards groups, or regulations to solve this problem.  We merely need to alter our purchase patterns so that it is in the financial interest of these companies to maintain support.


If legacy support is important to you, then when Lion comes out, don't buy it, and fill out a comment form on Apple's web site letting them know why.

If you want printer driver support for older printers, then tell Epson that you won't buy a new printer form them,  unless they show their commitment by providing drivers for older hardware.   An Epson 7900 or 4900 printer isn't cheap.  You might want it to last a few years.  If you think the changes in Lion are big, you haven't seen anything yet.  Mac OS-X is converging with iOS.  I think it's a pretty safe bet that after Lion, all printer drivers will need to be re-written and a lot of printers are going to be left out (unless you are happy with generic GIMP print drivers).


Remember, Microsoft and Apple are businesses.  If we reward good behavior by buying their products, and penalize bad behavior by shunning those products, they will get the idea pretty quickly.



Keep in mind that the underlying root of this discussion is that Apple, a company with tens of Billions of dollars of cash in the bank, is likely to drop support for Rosetta.  A move that will annoy and inconvenience millions of customers.  Some have defended this as a licensing issue.  I find this difficult to believe as Apple could likely buy the division that owns Rosetta, license itself the technology, and then sell off that division.

This is not a technical decision on Apple's part, it is a market decision.  They believe that consumers are better off junking old software and buying new.  If you agree with Apple, you should upgrade to Lion.  If you don't agree with Apple, then perhaps you shouldn't buy the upgrade.

For me, I want to be the one who decides when the time is right to upgrade my software.  I don't want an outside company (like Apple) making that decision for me.


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Alan Goldhammer

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Re: MAC OSx Lion and printers
« Reply #85 on: July 10, 2011, 11:26:35 am »

Alan, frankly it's a plague on all their houses. Coordination in this industry can be pretty dismal and the blame can be distributed all around. But much grief could be avoided if there were a standards group to which all the major players belonged having rules or guidelines about upgrade processes, information sharing and the duration of support to legacy items. Right now it's a jungle with each company doing as they see fit to maximize their own commercial interests.
Mark, for a number of years I was a member of one of the larger standards organization and such organizations mainly rely on expert volunteers to get the work done.  It is usually slow and tedious work best suited to standards on items that won't be obsolete in a short period of time (industrial materials are a good example).  In the software arena most of the work that I am familiar with is programming languages (I followed the 'C' to 'C++' standards activity for some time).  In fast moving areas such as what we are discussing here things are not straight forward and customers, both potential and actual must rule the day.  The reason Win is accepted in the business world is that Microsoft enforces backward compatibility and support of older operating systems (a lot of corporations still run WinXP and Office 2002 like my former employer).  Microsoft supports these well and there are lots of certified IT professionals who know how to troubleshoot things (we had four on staff of a 240 person organization).  Apple will not make a dent into this market unless they radically change their business strategy. 

I have never considered migrating to Apple (I only have an i-Pod) since the hardware is more expensive and I see no real advantage in terms of running either PS or LR which are platform agnostic.  If something goes wrong with my computer, I'm savvy enough to trouble shoot and correct the problem and I have a lot of peripherals that I can add or upgrade myself with little effort.

Both Apple and Microsoft have viable business strategies and have profited greatly.  They will continue to do so.  As customers, we need to evaluate which best suits our needs.
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Mark D Segal

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Re: MAC OSx Lion and printers
« Reply #86 on: July 10, 2011, 03:12:14 pm »


We don't need standards groups, or regulations to solve this problem.  We merely need to alter our purchase patterns so that it is in the financial interest of these companies to maintain support


Your talking about millions of amorphous and unorganized consumers. Yes, if each and every person behaved the way you suggest, it would add up to clout. Otherwise not. Sometimes ones needs a coordinated, institutionalized approach to address abusive issues.
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Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
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mfryd

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Re: MAC OSx Lion and printers
« Reply #87 on: July 10, 2011, 03:16:53 pm »

Your talking about millions of amorphous and unorganized consumers. Yes, if each and every person behaved the way you suggest, it would add up to clout. Otherwise not. Sometimes ones needs a coordinated, institutionalized approach to address abusive issues.

Unless that institution can influence the buying habits of the masses, what influence would it have over a company like Apple, which is targeting the consumer market?
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Mark D Segal

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Re: MAC OSx Lion and printers
« Reply #88 on: July 10, 2011, 03:46:14 pm »

Standards organizations and regulatory institutions are put in place to negotiate, arbitrate, or regulate for competing interests in society, so that - one hopes - generally livable solutions emerge to address problems that the market operating on its own does not succeed in dealing with adequately. In the course of performing these functions they also can and sometimes do educate public expectations, which influence behaviour. Alan is correct that this approach is often time consuming and resource-intensive, but we have them for a reason. Sometimes just having them there can incite companies to behave more responsibly if only to avoid dealing with them. I'm not saying this is a panacea of any kind - but it may be part of an approach to a generic problem in these high tech industries. There needs to be some kind of balance and reasonableness in the way technical progress and consumer interests are managed. The market on its own hasn't been particularly brilliant at handling this, (and I agree that Apple is probably more at fault than Microsoft) but it's a pretty broadly based set of issues, hence much of the discussion we are now having.
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Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
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mfryd

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Re: MAC OSx Lion and printers
« Reply #89 on: July 10, 2011, 06:01:29 pm »

Standards organizations and regulatory institutions are put in place to negotiate, arbitrate, or regulate for competing interests in society, so that - one hopes - generally livable solutions emerge to address problems that the market operating on its own does not succeed in dealing with adequately. In the course of performing these functions they also can and sometimes do educate public expectations, which influence behaviour. Alan is correct that this approach is often time consuming and resource-intensive, but we have them for a reason. Sometimes just having them there can incite companies to behave more responsibly if only to avoid dealing with them. I'm not saying this is a panacea of any kind - but it may be part of an approach to a generic problem in these high tech industries. There needs to be some kind of balance and reasonableness in the way technical progress and consumer interests are managed. The market on its own hasn't been particularly brilliant at handling this, (and I agree that Apple is probably more at fault than Microsoft) but it's a pretty broadly based set of issues, hence much of the discussion we are now having.

I agree that standards organizations are a good thing.

Apple has shown they have little interest in maintaining compatibility.  I don't see how the existence of a standard would somehow magically change their mind.

Why do you think a standards organization would change Apple's behavior? 

I can imagine businesses requiring adherence as a pre-purchase requirement, but Apple isn't interested in the business market.

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Mark D Segal

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Re: MAC OSx Lion and printers
« Reply #90 on: July 10, 2011, 07:26:44 pm »

I agree that standards organizations are a good thing.

Apple has shown they have little interest in maintaining compatibility.  I don't see how the existence of a standard would somehow magically change their mind.

Why do you think a standards organization would change Apple's behavior? 

I can imagine businesses requiring adherence as a pre-purchase requirement, but Apple isn't interested in the business market.



Hard to know exactly what would incite Apple to become more mindful of sustaining certain areas of backward compatibility. They'd have to decide what they'd need to do, whether it is worth it, not worth it. Note, their market for computer systems is not confined to prosumers. Many educational institutions and research organizations use Apple computers, so there is an interest beyond individual private consumers. Whether there is much interest in sustaining stuff like the MacPro and MacBook Pro line altogether of course is another question. When they're making gazillions from iPhones, iPads and iTunes, maybe the incentive isn't there and Windows is in all our futures. :-(
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Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
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Alan Goldhammer

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Re: MAC OSx Lion and printers
« Reply #91 on: July 10, 2011, 08:43:23 pm »

Note, their market for computer systems is not confined to prosumers. Many educational institutions and research organizations use Apple computers, so there is an interest beyond individual private consumers.
It's a drop in the bucket compared to the corporate installation of Win machines.  In addition, I think much of the use in education is a result of the Apple cachet (ill defined, I know) rather than anything that Macs can do that Win machines cannot.  The real problem in the corporate world is the absolute need in certain applications for regulatory compliance.  I spent 27 years in the biopharmaceutical industry and chaired an industry task force that was focused on US Food and Drug Administration regulation of computer system.  There is an absolute need to insure that any computer used in a laboratory or manufacturing site be compliant and be compliant over a significant number of years.  To go through validation of a new computer OS every two years (or whatever the time frame is for Apple switch overs) takes a lot of time and money.  Once a system and associate programs are validated, companies are not going to change things unless there is a very good reason.  Apple's current business model is not compatible with this.

As an aside, when my daughter entered University of Rochester several years ago she asked if she could get a Mac notebook.  I said as long as the university IT department supported it, that was fine with me. They did and I ended up paying $600 more for the Mac than a comparable Win notebook (I'm a soft touch).
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Mark D Segal

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Re: MAC OSx Lion and printers
« Reply #92 on: July 10, 2011, 08:48:28 pm »

There's no such thing as a comparable Windows laptop. I checked-out ALL of the key makes before I bought a MacBook Pro. Pricey yes, but I've never owned a better laptop be it terms of design, features or security.
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Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
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Schewe

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Re: MAC OSx Lion and printers
« Reply #93 on: July 10, 2011, 11:05:02 pm »

There's no such thing as a comparable Windows laptop. I checked-out ALL of the key makes before I bought a MacBook Pro. Pricey yes, but I've never owned a better laptop be it terms of design, features or security.

And there in lies Apple's ability to dictate the terms of using a ac. It's an integrated system of hardware and OS. If you want to use a Mac you must adapt to Apple's way of thinking and working. As you may recall, they decided to eliminate a floppy drive. People were aghast...but they were right...who uses a floppy drive now? Apple is known for driving innovation...one of the things that innovation causes is the loss of backwards compatibility. This is Apple's core nature and you ain't gonna change it (nor do I really want it changed).

There is always a bit of pain involved if you want to go the Apple way...Photoshop didn't get 64 bit processing till after Windows because, well, Apple decided to kill 64 bit Carbon (after Adobe based their road map on having it). They told Motorola to take a hike and went Intel for the processors causing developers to switch from a robust CodeWarrior version 12 to a puny Xcode 3.x. It took Adobe a long time to get MacIntel native cause 4 millions lines of code couldn't be compiled in Xcode.

You may not like the way Apple operates...but innovation is a fact of life if you want to use Apple products. MSFT would actually be in better shape if they had the guts to pull the trigger on killing off some of their backwards compatibility. They had high hope for "Longhorn" when they started laying out the future of Windows, but what they settled for with Vista was a piece of crap. Windows 7 "sucks less™" (which should be a trademark of MSFT).

You guys can get all bent out of shape if you want...on the other hand, updating software, hardware and OS's is a fact of life if you wanna be "digital". It's the price we pay to do what we want to do. Doesn't mean we have to be "happy" about it, but be realistic and practical...otherwise, get a Windows box.
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mfryd

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Re: MAC OSx Lion and printers
« Reply #94 on: July 10, 2011, 11:21:49 pm »

And there in lies Apple's ability to dictate the terms of using a ac. It's an integrated system of hardware and OS. If you want to use a Mac you must adapt to Apple's way of thinking and working. As you may recall, they decided to eliminate a floppy drive. People were aghast...but they were right...who uses a floppy drive now? Apple is known for driving innovation...one of the things that innovation causes is the loss of backwards compatibility. This is Apple's core nature and you ain't gonna change it (nor do I really want it changed).

There is always a bit of pain involved if you want to go the Apple way...Photoshop didn't get 64 bit processing till after Windows because, well, Apple decided to kill 64 bit Carbon (after Adobe based their road map on having it). They told Motorola to take a hike and went Intel for the processors causing developers to switch from a robust CodeWarrior version 12 to a puny Xcode 3.x. It took Adobe a long time to get MacIntel native cause 4 millions lines of code couldn't be compiled in Xcode.

You may not like the way Apple operates...but innovation is a fact of life if you want to use Apple products. MSFT would actually be in better shape if they had the guts to pull the trigger on killing off some of their backwards compatibility. They had high hope for "Longhorn" when they started laying out the future of Windows, but what they settled for with Vista was a piece of crap. Windows 7 "sucks less™" (which should be a trademark of MSFT).

You guys can get all bent out of shape if you want...on the other hand, updating software, hardware and OS's is a fact of life if you wanna be "digital". It's the price we pay to do what we want to do. Doesn't mean we have to be "happy" about it, but be realistic and practical...otherwise, get a Windows box.


Apple did not eliminate the floppy.  Apple merely removed the floppy as standard equipment.  Floppy drives were available from third parties.  I have a USB floppy that should work on the Mac I bought a few months ago.   

There is a huge difference between discouraging new development in a technology, an abruptly terminating it.  No one is asking that Apple make new software interfaces available for PPC.  No one is asking that Rosetta be included in the standard install.   What we are asking is that Apple not pull the plug on an already developed technology that is used by millions.

There are third parties who have created a Mac Classic emulator, allowing legacy OS-9 applications to run on modern hardware.   I don't see anyone complaining that the existence of a way to run Classic programs on modern hardware is somehow holding Apple back.

As to forced upgrades being a fact of digital life - that's clearly untrue.  It's true for the Mac, but not for windows.  It's certainly not true for my Canon 7D digital SLR, which happily works perfectly and with full functionality, mated to lenses that I bought in the 1980's

The new MacBook Airs that will be announced next week won't run Snow Leopard.  This means that they will run software for DOS, Windows XP, Windows Vista, Windows 7, and even the classic OS-9.   Why should PPC code be singled out as incompatible?
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Schewe

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Re: MAC OSx Lion and printers
« Reply #95 on: July 11, 2011, 12:22:21 am »

The new MacBook Airs that will be announced next week won't run Snow Leopard.  This means that they will run software for DOS, Windows XP, Windows Vista, Windows 7, and even the classic OS-9.   Why should PPC code be singled out as incompatible?

Because, that is Apple's nature...not sure why you are surprised or shocked...it's Apple's nature. So either deal with it or move to Windows but I can pretty much assure you that NOTHING you post here will modify Apple's behavior. So, what do you hope to accomplish? Idle use of bandwidth? That's all it amounts to. It's useful for users to know where they stand regarding OS X 10.7, it's foolish to think any amount of complaining will change the future.
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mfryd

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Re: MAC OSx Lion and printers
« Reply #96 on: July 11, 2011, 06:47:53 am »

Because, that is Apple's nature...not sure why you are surprised or shocked...it's Apple's nature. So either deal with it or move to Windows but I can pretty much assure you that NOTHING you post here will modify Apple's behavior. So, what do you hope to accomplish? Idle use of bandwidth? That's all it amounts to. It's useful for users to know where they stand regarding OS X 10.7, it's foolish to think any amount of complaining will change the future.

Nothing any of us posts here will directly change Apple's, or Epson's or HP's behavior.

We post here to give each other advice and insights so that we can all make more informed decisions.

Some people are of the belief that one platform is the best and should be used by everyone.  I disagree.  Each of us has different needs, and the solution that's right for one, may not be right for another.

I was pointing out Apple's unannounced move to concentrate on the consumer market at the expense of the business market. 

If you're someone who upgrades as fast as you can, this might not be an issue for you.  If you are someone who buys a computer or printer and expects to get many years of use out of it, this may be a significant policy.   

Some people are at a point where they are trying to decide which platform to go with.   I just think they are better off making an informed decision.
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Clearair

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Re: MAC OSx Lion and printers
« Reply #97 on: July 11, 2011, 06:51:08 am »

OK
Here is one lever.
They're marketing strategy has a big hole.

Apple have made a great song and dance about going green.
Battery tech, packaging, materials used, I could go on and on and you get the point. Apple is using this as a marketing plus while being responsible (hmmmm).
Abandoning old tech early and when there is no reason, especially with no international recycle policy is NOT green. I have just bought Snow Leopard. I run it on my Macbook and saw no reason to install this OS on my MacPro desktop until now.

I will not buy any OS unless there is a real reason other than shallow GUI updates.
Lion will be as SL was, a cheap OS dumb-down. I wanted SL now for ram/64 bit reasons only.


I vote for a price increase version of Lion with real professional user kudos! So say I.


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Alan Goldhammer

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Re: MAC OSx Lion and printers
« Reply #98 on: July 11, 2011, 08:25:35 am »

Until someone can definitively show me that the OS has an impact on the end result of the program (e.g., 2+2 =5, or that an image renders differently because of the OS and not LR/PS), then the decision becomes one of personal preference.  I pretty much agree with Jeff, that we've beaten this poor horse into submission.
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Shane Webster

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Re: MAC OSx Lion and printers
« Reply #99 on: July 11, 2011, 09:39:06 am »

Quote
There is a huge difference between discouraging new development in a technology, an abruptly terminating it.

Considering dropping PPC support, I really don't think there's much abruptness at all.  Apple's transition to the Intel platform was "complete" August 6, 2006, five years to you and me, much longer in the digital world.  I have no idea what Apple told or has been telling developers regarding continuing to support programs written for a chipset that hasn't been in Apple computers for nearly five years, but the proverbial handwriting has been on the wall, IMO, for quite some time--even more so with the release of SL and having to separately install Rosetta.  Of course, Apple should have told devs if they haven't but surely the devs have known.

While it makes it a bit painful if I want to upgrade to Lion while maintaining PPC programs, in the end I don't mind Apple's dropping support for the older programs.  It's unfortunate for programs that are no longer being produced, but I have little sympathy for current programs that developers just haven't migrated (e.g., Intuit).  Anyone remember Word 6 for mac?  Awful piece of software that finally got rewritten.  In some way, perhaps re-writing the software makes for a less-bloated, more efficient program that delivers a better user experience.  Yes, it takes resources for companies to re-write their software, but, then again, their updates aren't free.  Perhaps I'm living in my own happy little world, but,  I think in the end dropping legacy support and forcing devs. to update their programs is going to be a good thing for me, as a user.  Now, where is my hypercard. . .
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