Red River Papers?

[mshea]

Hi All,

I'm printing on a 3880 and I've been using Harman by Hanemuhle gloss baryta 17 X 25, assuming that was the only paper available in that size. I just read on another thread that Red River produces a variety of papers in 17 X 25. Their prices are quite reasonable. I'd be interested in hearing what people think of them.

Thanks,
Merrill

[howardm]

Good reasonably priced paper w/o much 'fine art' pretensions but often w/ lots of OBAs. 

Are there 'better' papers for a lot more $$?  yes. 

Most of the RR papers are very competent and I'd have little issue recommending them
unless you were really looking for something special.

They make a very (!) cheap sampler box of all their papers so you can determine that for yourself.

[Ernst Dinkla]

Good reasonably priced paper w/o much 'fine art' pretensions but often w/ lots of OBAs. 

Correct and what has been tested by Aardenburg did not stand the test well but the Aurora Natural that has no FBAs. Of all their samples I could not figure out what the actual weight of the papers was, sometimes described in imperial sometimes in metric and not corresponding with one another when both were given. At last I put them on a scale and the Aurora qualities were actually 230 gsm and not the documented 250 gsm. It would be nice if they were a bit more serious about this.

AFAIK, they have no Fiber/Baryta quality.


met vriendelijke groeten, Ernst

New: Spectral plots of +250 inkjet papers:

http://www.pigment-print.com/spectralplots/spectrumviz_1.htm

[mshea]

Well, I guess that settles it. Doesn't sound like Red River is for me!

Thanks guys,

Merrill

[brianz]

What are OBA and FBA? 

I have been using Red River Arctic Polar Luster and I think it's great with my Canon ipf6300.  Profiles seem to work fine too.  I tested Red River and Hahnemuhle, and I much preferred the Red River.  I shoot wildlife if that matters.

[neile]

I think Ernst meant OBAs in his post, not FBAs. OBA is short for Optical Brightning Agent. Paper manufacturers add them to certain papers to help the paper base brighter/whiter.

The problem with them is they lose effectiveness over time, resulting in a shift of the base colour of the paper. "over time" varies quite a bit depending on the paper and the amount of OBAs present.

Neil

[Ernst Dinkla]

The terms mostly used are Fluorescent Whitening Agent and Optical Brightening Agent. I use Fluorescent Brightening Agent which describes the effect better for the types used in papers. UV is absorbed and in this case emitted in the blue region of the spectrum, the same region used to describe brightness of paper instead of whiteness that takes all visible spectral reflectance into account.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Optical_brightener
http://www.astm.org/Standards/D985.htm

The reliable sources for what paper whites do in time are Aardenburg Imaging's test results. After that you could check my SpectrumViz plots to see whether there are explanations possible for that behaviour. Things to consider are: where is the FBA used, in the paper base, in the coating, in both, which quantity, enough normal whitening agents used as a buffer when FBAs fail, whitener enclosed in the base between the barriers in RC paper, etc. And there it ends as I can not measure what the quality of the FBA is. Experts could possibly tell based on the absorbance in the UV range and the emission beyond 420 Nm.

met vriendelijke groeten, Ernst

New: Spectral plots of +250 inkjet papers:

http://www.pigment-print.com/spectralplots/spectrumviz_1.htm

[Alan Goldhammer]

And there it ends as I can not measure what the quality of the FBA is. Experts could possibly tell based on the absorbance in the UV range and the emission beyond 420 Nm.

met vriendelijke groeten, Ernst

It is very difficult to tell anything from just the spectrum since many dyes will give quite similar responses.  You cannot know either the quantity or the quality of the dye in this manner.  The only sure way to assess the quality in the absence of knowing the exact structure is through accelerated permanence testing such as that conducted by Aardenberg.  I would much prefer that the paper manufacturers be a little truthful on this matter but I doubt that we will see this happening.  You can probably guarantee that a very low priced paper is using less expensive OBAs (and probably paper stock in general).  I think the good rule of thumb here is "you get what you pay for."

[Mark D Segal]

........  I think the good rule of thumb here is "you get what you pay for."

As a rule of thumb, I agree. But there's lots of wiggle room. I remember here in Toronto when Canson papers first became available the comparable types were quite a bit more expensive than their Ilford comparators, then one fine day the prices came down somewhat, then ilford's came up somewhat - it's called market-driven competition. Clearly, the distributors are looking over each others' shoulders. But where you are correct is that both of them are likely to be costlier than lower quality brands because it costs more to make them. As well, much of this must be scale sensitive, not only materials.

[MHMG]

It is very difficult to tell anything from just the spectrum since many dyes will give quite similar responses.  You cannot know either the quantity or the quality of the dye in this manner.  The only sure way to assess the quality in the absence of knowing the exact structure is through accelerated permanence testing such as that conducted by Aardenberg.

Just a heads up for those interested in these types of tests. Take a look at the paper white point shift occurring in sample ID#s 6 and 37 in the AaI&A database (http://www.aardenburg-imaging.com/cgi-bin/mrk/_4899c2hvd19kb2NfbGlzdC80) as they are reaching 200 megalux hours exposure in test (approximately 100 years on display at the light level specification of 450 lux for 12 hours per day exposure routinely cited by industry sources). Both samples represent different batches of a popular fine art paper that contains high levels of OBA.  What's interesting about these test results is that the level of discoloration now present in this paper cannot be accounted for strictly by "OBA burnout" where the color change is due solely to loss of fluorescence.  Either the OBA degradation by-products are not remaining colorless where the paper would revert merely to it's "natural base color" over time, or there is other chemistry in the paper that is discoloring as well, or it is a combination of both factors.

It has taken quite a while in testing to begin to see various trends in the AaI&A database, but interesting results like this one are why I keep testing.  Buying a pigmented ink printer is a big step in the right direction where print longevity is concerned, but the choice of media plays also  huge role. It's well worth evaluating printer/ink/media combinations not only for initial print quality but also for retention of that print quality over time. The game isn't over yet for discriminating users even if the many industry claims of 100+ year print longevity suggest otherwise.

cheers,
Mark
http://www.aardenburg-imaging.com

[Alan Goldhammer]

We know that EEF has a lot of OBA content in it.  Striking results indeed with two different inksets where the Canon inkset shows a large amount of fading compared to Epson at 180 megalux hours.  Paperwhite results are quite troublesome and it's hard to fathom what might be happening here unless it is with the paper stock itself.  Without knowing what the structure of the OBA is, it is quite difficult to predict what the degradation products will be and what their spectral properties are. 

[Ernst Dinkla]

Just a heads up for those interested in these types of tests. Take a look at the paper white point shift occurring in sample ID#s 6 and 37 in the AaI&A database (http://www.aardenburg-imaging.com/cgi-bin/mrk/_4899c2hvd19kb2NfbGlzdC80) as they are reaching 200 megalux hours exposure in test (approximately 100 years on display at the light level specification of 450 lux for 12 hours per day exposure routinely cited by industry sources). Both samples represent different batches of a popular fine art paper that contains high levels of OBA.  What's interesting about these test results is that the level of discoloration now present in this paper cannot be accounted for strictly by "OBA burnout" where the color change is due solely to loss of fluorescence.  Either the OBA degradation by-products are not remaining colorless where the paper would revert merely to it's "natural base color" over time, or there is other chemistry in the paper that is discoloring as well, or it is a combination of both factors.

cheers,
Mark
http://www.aardenburg-imaging.com

Mark,

With results like that the Red River Aurora Natural is more Signature Worthy.
So you do not always get what you pay for.

met vriendelijke groeten, Ernst
New: Spectral plots of +250 inkjet papers:
http://www.pigment-print.com/spectralplots/spectrumviz_1.htm

[MHMG]

Mark,

With results like that the Red River Aurora Natural is more Signature Worthy.
So you do not always get what you pay for.

Ouch, I didn't say that . But point is well taken.  Indeed, none of the OEM printer manufacturers produce papers in their own plants, AFAIK. They find qualified suppliers and rebrand, perhaps in some cases asking for special coating and/or base formulations or tighter batch-to-batch manufacturing tolerances. Moreover, if the standard industry tests don't pick up on a particular quality issue such as OBA burnout, then it's understandable, that said issue won't be a determining factor in what media are chosen for their product line.  Nevertheless, it follows that all inkjet media are "third party" media to some degree, and there's no reason to assume a third party vendor like Red River can't compete with the OEM-branded papers as far as producing a quality product. As I look over the range of tested media in the AaI&A database, it appears that all inkjet paper suppliers whose products I've tested to date including the OEM printer labels seem to have a variety of good, bad, and in between.  And in addition to inherent media whitepoint stability, any particular media can interact better with one type of ink versus another. In other words, the most longevity-enhancing paper for Epson ink may not be the best match across the board for Canon ink, Hp ink, etc., and vice versa.

cheers,

Mark