Newbie Advice wanted - Suggestion for Wide angle Landscapes

[hdomke]

My clients keep asking for larger landscapes. I'm considering trying medium format for the first time.

Given that I like to shoot my landscapes very wide with my Canon 1Ds Mk3 someone suggested this package:
Digital Back: Phase One P45 +
Cambo Wide DS Technical Body
Schneider 35 XL Digitar Lens

He said that since I like to shoot wide that he does not suggest a medium format body.
He thinks that the movements in a technical camera will allow me to get the best quality.
And they are better for creating stitched panoramas.

He says he STRONGLY believes a 40 MP back is better than something larger.
He says that if I stitch two files together that I will have close to 80 MP.
He said the 40 MP back is better than the other backs at long exposures.

Thoughts about that Cambo body? That particular Schneider lens?
Thoughts on 40 MP back vs something larger?

Thanks for any suggestions.

Henry

[Martin Kristiansen]

This is just my take.

I shoot landscape on MF with the 80MP Leaf and the same back on a Cambo Ultima.
Backs with higher pixel counts than the 40MP are frequently physically larger and that makes the lenses used effectively wider. Not sure why it would be better to use a smaller chip and then stitch. If you want wide choose the largest chip covered by the lens.

A MF camera mounted on a pano head will give unbeatable quality for stitching in my experience. A technical camera using movements does make it easy to stitch but movements frequently result in colour casts and the need to shoot and use a custom gain file before stitching. Not a real problem but extra steps

Stitching 2 40MP files will give closer to 60MP once a comfortable overlap is allowed for. Then again stitching 2 80 MP files will give around 120 MP.

In summary the bigger the chip and the larger the pixel count the better for you. Stitching on a technical camera offers no real world advantage over stitching with a MF camera. 

[David Watson]

Hi

Used a Hasselblad H3D-39 with a variety of lenses and a pano head from Really Right Stuff on a two week trip to Iceland last year.  Most of my images were stitched from up to 10 shots.  The quality was superb.  I used the 80mm, 150, 210 and 300mm lenses in the main.  Single shots taken with the HCD28 at up to f22 were also extremely good with enormous DOF and no indications of loss of sharpness due to diffraction.

I have tried using a technical camera and the Hasselblad HST adapter for this kind of photography but found it cumbersome and difficult to use in the field.  The lack of Liveview on MF is a big drawback when using manual focus.

[hdomke]

A technical camera using movements does make it easy to stitch but movements frequently result in colour casts and the need to shoot and use a custom gain file before stitching. 

How do you create the custom gain file? I've heard about shooting a white transluscent plastic card with every shot. Is that how you do it?
Does it work well?

Thanks!

[hdomke]

A shooter from New York warned me quite strongly NOT to use the Cambo Wide DS.  He said that if you shoot into the sun the coatings on the inside of the camera are not black enough and he got flare from light bouncing around in the camera body.  He swithced to Arca. 

Has anyone else heard about this?
Is this a legitimate concern?

It is important for me because I like backlighting.

[hdomke]

I have tried using a technical camera and ... found it cumbersome and difficult to use in the field.  The lack of Liveview on MF is a big drawback when using manual focus.

What part of using the technical camera was cumbersome?

[hdomke]

The lack of Liveview on MF is a big drawback when using manual focus.

Forgive my ignorance on focusing, but... when shooting landscapes, what is the optimal way to focus the package I describe above?

[Weldon Brewster]

I use my Cambo Wide DS here in very sunny Southern California with absolutely no problems with internal flare. A french flag is very helpful for lens flare however.

[jonathan.lipkin]

I had a look at a Cambo system as well. It was wonderfully well made and I've heard very good things about it. I ruled it out for two reasons - first was that it was out of my budget. Second was that as far as I recall there was no sliding adapter, so the back would have to be removed if you wanted to look at the ground glass to focus. Of course, there is also a rangefinder which you can use. As I was doing a lot of tilting of the lens, I ruled out the rangefinder.

I've heard very good things about the p45+, and the one that I tested was wonderful.

One other option you might want to consider is a Rollei Xact technical camera. They can be gotten pretty cheap and are a nice lightweight camera.

As for a flag, I use a Flare Buster arm and a darkslide from a 4x5 holder. The FB arm fits into the hotshoe of the camera and has a clamp on the other end. I also got a full Matthews french flag, but it was so big and heavy that the arm required to hold it up was pretty heft. The FB+slide weigh about an ounce put together.

[Don Libby]

Henry,

I've been using a Cambo WRS1000 as my primary landscape camera for several years first with a P45+ and more recently with a P65+.  I also use Schneider 35, 72, and 120mm lenses.

Regarding movements:  The WRS1000 provides the ability to use movements on the rear of the camera; both lateral and vertical.  The digital back moves around the rear of the lens which offers a flat stitching of multiple images.  This flat stitching provides for a much larger finished image file rather than the "bowtie or butterfly" effect when stitching multiple images from a standard DSLR.

Using the 35mm and movements of 10mm left and right of center gives an image file that is in effect much wider than the original 35mm focal length.  The same is true in using the 72mm only out to 15mm which gives me a much wider image than 72mm, which is closer to 40 something and more detail.  While the 120mm can use movements out to 20mm while giving a great panoramic image.  While I've only addressed lateral movements you can use the movements of the WRS to produce 3 rows of images with up to 3 images each for a huge finished image.

The differences between the Cambo WDS and WRS are small yet need to be addressed.  The WDS is the old standard tech camera by Cambo that was originally made for film and later adapted to digital.  The movements on the WDS are split with lateral on the rear and vertical on the front.  The WRS was designed by Cambo to be used solely with digital and is slightly smaller and weights slightly less with  the movements on the rear.

Lens Cast (LCC).  All technical cameras by their very nature produce some level of lens cast which can very easily be corrected.  There is much written about LCC both here and at GetDpi and on my blog.  

Digital back:  I used the P45+ for several years and got excellent results.  The P45+ is near full size yet still offers a small amount of crop thus making that 35mm slightly longer in nature.  While the P45+ is an excellent back I'd recommend going to a full frame back such as a P65+ and 60 megapixels.

Not sure where you friend is getting his information however the newer backs (P65+ and IQ160 and IQ180) will give you resolutions that will knock yous socks off.  He is however correct, the king of long exposures at 60 minutes is the P45+.

Stitching multiple images doesn't necessarily double the resolution; you won't get 80 megapixels from 2-stiched images - closer to 60.  You'd get closer to double the resolution only if you layer the images on top of another.

Thoughts on the Cambo body?  I've tested both and much prefer the WRS.  Schneider 35mm lens?  I've used it for several years with great success and can equally recommend the 72 and 120mm.  The one thing you might want to take into consideration with the 35mm is the use of the center filter; you should have one - I do and it never gets removed.  Digital back - minimum is P45+ get back to start with.

Using a tech camera isn't for everyone.  It is slow to set up, slow to shoot and there isn't an auto anything to be found.  Then again if you do your part right using a tech camera will give you results that are amazing to see.  

My only other recommendation is contacting a reputable dealer, one that will listen to you with out trying to get your credit card info within the first 5 minutes.  My dealer of choice is Dave Gallagher/Doug Peterson of Capture Integration.

Best of luck

Don

[cng]

Henry,

I echo Don's comments.  For a short while now I have been using the Wide RS plus Schneider 35mm XL and 43mm XL for commercial architecture and interiors with no problems.  The Wide DS was designed to straddle both MF digital and 4x5 film, hence it's larger size and greater movements compared to the RS.  Note that the greater movements of the DS is not really an advantage because you won't be able to make full use of them with a MFDB and Schneider/Rodenstock lenses.  The RS was designed specifically for MF digital, is more compact and has all movements on the rear of the camera.

I strongly urge you to purchase the matching CF if you decide to use the Schneider 35mm XL.  The CF stays on my 35mm permanently and I am waiting for my 43mm's CF to arrive sometime in July.

Yes, LCC works well.  Generally speaking, most (all?) lenses on technical cameras require LCC, even the longer focal lengths.  You may not notice any light falloff or sensor cast in some images, but you will definitely see it when you shoot the LCC frame.  LCC is a fact of life with technical cameras and is not the burden that some make it out to be.  Changing and loading 4x5 film holders and Polaroid backs in the film days was more annoying.  Plus, the LCC algorithms and workflow have been continually refined over the years.

Regarding shooting speed/workflow of technical cameras versus MF/35mm DSLR, I find that I am equally fast/slow/fussy with each system as soon as a tripod is involved.

The veiling flare issue has been mentioned on the internet by one person in relation to the DS, but I have not yet encountered it with my RS.  If you are shooting contre-jour then flare will always be a potential issue, especially when using wide lenses with large front elements (and perhaps CF's as well).

[hdomke]

Don,
Thanks for your VERY helpful comments.

Thoughts on the Cambo body?  I've tested both and much prefer the WRS.

Can you say exactly why?
How do you focus yours? Do you use an optical viewfinder with a mask?

The one thing you might want to take into consideration with the 35mm is the use of the center filter; you should have one - I do and it never gets removed.

I thought there was some way to fix this in Capture One if you shoot a white transluscent plastic card with every shot. Or does that just deal with the color cast and not the vignetting?

My only other recommendation is contacting a reputable dealer, one that will listen to you with out trying to get your credit card info within the first 5 minutes.  My dealer of choice is Dave Gallagher/Doug Peterson of Capture Integration.

Others have strongly recommended Capture Integration too. Thanks for the suggestion.

[hdomke]

Thank you for your thoughts!

I strongly urge you to purchase the matching CF if you decide to use the Schneider 35mm XL. 

I cringe at giving up two f-stops of light by adding center filter. I wonder why software can't fix this?
One of the things I like about using Lightroom with my 1Ds Mk4 is the lens correction built in to the software.

The veiling flare issue has been mentioned on the internet by one person in relation to the DS

Thanks for letting me know. This sounds like an unsubstantiated rumor. Interesting to speculate that a center filter might make flare even worse.

[cng]

I cringe at giving up two f-stops of light by adding center filter. I wonder why software can't fix this?

It can be fixed in sw but you are effectively pushing the corners by 2 stops, potentially creating noise and other chroma problems.  The CF evens out the exposure across the frame, although not perfectly so you will still need to do a LCC, and you don't end up with a large exposure discrepancy between the image's centre and edges.

The 2-stop light loss is something you will have to accept if you choose the 35mm XL with CF. Either that or look at the Rodenstocks, which have their own compromises.  Everyone is shooting with different systems and lenses, and making it work for them. You will have to satisfy yourself with your choices, and a good dealer can help with this.

[Don Libby]

Henry

I prefer the WRS due to its weight and size and mainly because the movements are all on the rear so I don't have to step in front of it while standing on a cliff face. 

Focusing - I attempted to use a groundglass when I first got it however just couldn't feel or find the love in doing that.  The main drawback was having to remove the back to use one.  I think I used the groundglass less than 5% total and then only to check filter placement.  I used the cold shoe on top of the camera to center the camera where I wanted it and it work well for over a year.  I had wanted to get a viewfinder but didn't want to spend the huge amount they wanted for a new one and was able to get a used one about 9-months ago; work great.  I bought the screens for my 35 and 72 from my dealer and still spent less than a new viewfinder.  Oh and by the way - you don't use the viewfinder to focus, at least I don't.  The main purpose of the viewfinder is setting up the shot and seeing where the image will be in different movements.

I shoot mainly landscape and focusing hasn't been that much of an issue for me.  I just recently tried a Leica laser finder and like the way it works.

Lens - I too came from shooing a Canon (1DsII) and my wife still uses a 1DsIII for here work.  My concern was switching from a faster 2.8 lens to medium format and say a 5.4.  Since 99.99% of my work with a tech camera is on tripod that hasn't been any issue. 

Center Filters - I also thought I could "fix" the image in post however I very quickly found that the time involved didn't match the rewards and immediately got the CF. In the end it's much easier and faster to get the image right in camera than to try and fix an images using software.  Then again different horses of course.

Flare - I have and used a flare buster however while I still have it in my bag I haven't been using for close to a year.  Remember I live and work in the southwest and routinely shoot here, Death Valley, Grand Canyon, Monument Valley etc.  It hasn't been an issue.

Shooting medium format is different from 35mm however not so much as you have any steep learning curve.  A Phase or Mamiya body is very much like a Canon only slightly larger and uses slower lenses.  The real difference is when you begin to use a tech camera; much slower and deliberate.  You'll see an immediate difference between shooting 35 and medium format and a huge difference in using a tech camera.  Remember, you can't rush a tech camera.

One last thought is on your computer and software.  Medium format RAW files are bigger than 35mm.  Once you process them they get even larger and once the image is completed you can have a huge file (I routinely have over 2GB files for a completed piece).  Is you computer up to the task?  Faster computers, large fast storage, and more RAM than you might ever thought you needed.  Then there's software.  You'll need to simi-master Capture One Pro to get the best out of it. 

To give you an example of the above thoughts - I use a Dell Precision 690 dual quad core that has 52GB RAM.  I'm using 4-internal drives (2-spinning at 15K the others at 10K) then there's the external drives which total 10 drives in total.  I also have 2-Dell 30' monitors that use a NVIDA NVS450 (I also have a Cintiq 12WX connected).  All this has been upgraded over the years to where it stands today.  The system works for me with few bottlenecks.  I also have a Dell Precision 6400 laptop for travel that has 16GB RAM dual drives with one being a SSD.  My travel kit also includes 4-external firewire drives.  All this is needed as we sometimes go out for 30 to 60 days at a time. 

Again, good luck

Don

[jonathan.lipkin]

+1 for capture integration.

[elf]

I'd say that if you will be stitching, you're just wasting $30,000 on a new camera.  Your current camera can stitch to any field of view and do it far more easily than an MF camera.

[cng]

Thanks for letting me know. This sounds like an unsubstantiated rumor. Interesting to speculate that a center filter might make flare even worse.

Maybe, maybe not. All I can offer (hopefully without tempting fate) is that I love my RS and haven't had a problem with it. I've said this before in different posts: I think all the systems are beautiful and capable of producing great images, but they just do it in different ways.

There seems to be an "accepted" doctrine that filters on a lens will cause flare. However, as always, it depends. In my experience the 35mm XL with CF doesn't flare for my type of shooting. Plus, the wide Schneiders generally tend to have much smaller front elements than the Rodenstock HR-W's (except the new 28mm Super Digitar, which is a monster).

[hdomke]

The main purpose of the viewfinder is setting up the shot and seeing where the image will be in different movements.

I can't see why the viewfinder is "optional". Am I right that unless you are shooting tethered, to set up the shot you would have to take a picture and look at the screen on the digital back?

Center Filters - I also thought I could "fix" the image in post however I very quickly found that the time involved didn't match the rewards and immediately got the CF.

I was told that if you shoot a white card to go with each exposure that Capture One can use that information to automatically fix vignetting, color cast and sensor dust. Is that a more complicated process than it sounds? Does it not work well?

One last thought is on your computer and software. ... Is you computer up to the task? 

Good point! My year-old Mac system is not as powerful as the one you have:
32 GB RAM, 6 TB Internal RAID (7200 RMP Serial ATA), two 30-inch Cinema Displays, ATI Radeon HD 4870 512MB Video Card
Powerful enough?
Thanks again for your thoughts!

[dchew]

I can't see why the viewfinder is "optional". Am I right that unless you are shooting tethered, to set up the shot you would have to take a picture and look at the screen on the digital back?

Yes, you are correct, but of course pixels are free. I don't use a viewfinder and actually find it quite liberating.  You definitely take more shots, but even a viewfinder isn't going to get you precise framing, so you will be reframing based on the first few shots anyway.  However, I'm in the minority here.  Most technical camera users have some sort of viewfinder, either an iPhone or a traditional viewfinder.

I was told that if you shoot a white card to go with each exposure that Capture One can use that information to automatically fix vignetting, color cast and sensor dust. Is that a more complicated process than it sounds? Does it not work well?

It works pretty darn well for most situations.  I do not have a center filter for any of my lenses, but am planning to get one for my 43xl. If you are shifting frequently it is worth it.  The software will correct for the color cast and the vignetting just fine, but in doing so it increases the exposure at the edge of the frame, which increases the noise out there.  Whether that increase is visible in prints depends on many factors as you probably know.  So there are several things you can do:
1.  Don't worry about it and decide later if the LCC process gives you acceptable results.  You can always get a center filter later.  This is the path I've chosen.
2.  Get a center filter.
3.  Use Rodenstock wide-angles which are designed to have less color cast but are heavier and have more distortion than the Schneiders.
4.  Avoid shifting too far.
5.  Stick with 35mm and stitch as necessary to get the increased quality / size.

Dave