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Author Topic: dust in 5d2 video , how to remove?  (Read 6695 times)

rainer_v

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dust in 5d2 video , how to remove?
« on: June 09, 2011, 10:59:02 am »

in which way i can remove a dust spot in a video captured by the 5dmk2?
how you do it with a red ? should be the same problem right?

also i `ve shot some time lapse sequence, cant be the solution to correct each image here, but Lightroom doesnt work removing the spot with the healing tool,
the spot is in a moving cloud area and this needs different source points as the clouds are moving, otherwise it remains very visible in the end.
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rainer viertlböck
architecture photograp

fredjeang

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Re: dust in 5d2 video , how to remove?
« Reply #1 on: June 09, 2011, 11:41:57 am »

For removing a spot in motion I personaly use a solid that reproduce a closed clean area and a tracker in Autodesk. If the dust goes over different background, you'll need to ad keypoints and edit the solid to make it match the background. The Autodesk trackers are IMO one of the best availables to date. That is a + or - 10-20 min task independently of the footage used. But expect a learning curve. I think that the methods are similar but each software has it's own interface so...

You can see an example of this technique here, start at 3.23 in the video : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SrOnUgsTXmg&feature=related
It is used for a finger mark but could be used for anything else like dust, the spirit is the same. I use it all the time to clean things.

I don't see in RedCineX a tool to do it.

For that task you could use PS extended also, more familiar. PS extended works on movie for awhile now. Expect also a learning curve but easier. But, see how fast it was done in Combustion? I doubt it could be done that fast in PS.

Since motion, I'm very very cautious about cleaning the sensor and make tests before on a grey board. Don't mess with it because it can be really a prob.
« Last Edit: June 09, 2011, 01:41:00 pm by fredjeang »
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bcooter

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Re: dust in 5d2 video , how to remove?
« Reply #2 on: June 09, 2011, 01:52:09 pm »

in which way i can remove a dust spot in a video captured by the 5dmk2?
how you do it with a red ? should be the same problem right?

also i `ve shot some time lapse sequence, cant be the solution to correct each image here, but Lightroom doesnt work removing the spot with the healing tool,
the spot is in a moving cloud area and this needs different source points as the clouds are moving, otherwise it remains very visible in the end.

If your into detailed area like a face, your scrrewed, or you'll have to do a lot of manual work.

If it's in an area like sky's out of focus buildings, secenics, backgrounds you can important the video into cs5 extended into single frames, automated with the clone tool. and find an area that works for the video like slighty to the right, or below or whatever and let it does it's think.

then export it back out in whatever flavor of codec you want..

right now we're working on a short 10 second clip of a model where when she smiles she gets certain undesirable facial features.  We actually retouching frame by frame, but it's semi automated and it works like magic.

The learning process of cs5 is not steep and with a little logic you can do a lot.

In fact you'd be amazed at the number of high in production houses that use photoshop for a large bulk of their work.  They might own or lease a million dollars worth of other software and equipment but a lot of the work you see is just hand worked photoshop, frame by frame.

IMO

BC

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fredjeang

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Re: dust in 5d2 video , how to remove?
« Reply #3 on: June 09, 2011, 02:11:51 pm »

In fact you'd be amazed at the number of high in production houses that use photoshop for a large bulk of their work.  They might own or lease a million dollars worth of other software and equipment but a lot of the work you see is just hand worked photoshop, frame by frame.

IMO

BC


BC
Numbers!
An hour on a Flame unit here is about 700-800 euros and need a highly skilled well-paid operator. Most of the prods use many other softwares in many tasks because a PS or AE operator here owns 900euros/mounths (nothing), are easy to find in the market place, so they tend to use a lot a vast palette of cheaper softwares for a lot of tasks wich cost is very little even in frame by frame compared to their million dollars units and only go on them with the AD or the director himself when they need changes on real time, when time is an issue etc...or really if budgets allow.

It's a bit like the US air force. An hour on a SR71 Blackbird costs a fortune and they sended them only if they didn't have no other choice or was strategically key.

Most of the young generation are trained at one point or another on Adobe. There is a lot of real PS or AE artists but their value in the market is close to zero. I see it here. Their salaries are miserable. Cine-video prod are extensively using them to keep costs in the low, all the peripherical and repetitives, unfriendly tasks are done by those softwares and those kids. Some of them are fx genius.
« Last Edit: June 09, 2011, 02:27:09 pm by fredjeang »
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bcooter

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Re: dust in 5d2 video , how to remove?
« Reply #4 on: June 09, 2011, 04:56:29 pm »

Fred,

I'm talking about high end artists and houses in LA that have flame, flint, fire, everything from the past, everything new today and you'd still be surprised how much of the work youi see is done in photoshop.

I could names the houses, though I don't think they'd like that.

Still CS5 will do wonders.

IMO

BC
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fredjeang

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Re: dust in 5d2 video , how to remove?
« Reply #5 on: June 09, 2011, 05:54:05 pm »

Fred,

I'm talking about high end artists and houses in LA that have flame, flint, fire, everything from the past, everything new today and you'd still be surprised how much of the work youi see is done in photoshop.

I could names the houses, though I don't think they'd like that.

Still CS5 will do wonders.

IMO

BC
James,

I fully trust you on that. I know what kind of studios and professionals you might be in touch with.

Actually, you seems to be so clear about PS capabilities in motion that I will look more closely on it and if it can add another efficient tool on my palette it's worth to learn and use.

Cheers.
« Last Edit: June 09, 2011, 06:58:12 pm by fredjeang »
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rainer_v

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Re: dust in 5d2 video , how to remove?
« Reply #6 on: June 11, 2011, 12:23:39 pm »

thank you for your suggestions .... what new land for me to put my nose into video. will look into ps extended.
my dust spot sits in a moving cloud in a time lapse sequence . so apply spot removal to all the single frames does not lead to a solution cause the source spot has to be moved, otherwise it still visible in the end. blurring the region in all single frames finally was the solution.
have to be even more carefull about dusk with the 5d, as i am already. one of the real shortcomings of this 35mm cams i.m.o.
my leaf back on the artek has to be cleaned once in weeks and than its easily done,- but no video on it :)
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rainer viertlböck
architecture photograp

fredjeang

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Re: dust in 5d2 video , how to remove?
« Reply #7 on: June 11, 2011, 05:45:36 pm »

Talking about removing things, amazing! I like those features.

Play the video and please go directly to 26:00 min.



Really good IMO.
« Last Edit: June 11, 2011, 05:58:58 pm by fredjeang »
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rainer_v

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Re: dust in 5d2 video , how to remove?
« Reply #8 on: June 12, 2011, 06:38:57 pm »

very interesting.... fascinating. btw tried around with ps extended and it looks very tempting to treat the footages in the same way as i am used to with photographs. all is new land now so i love it if it stays a bit familiar ...

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rainer viertlböck
architecture photograp

fredjeang

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Re: dust in 5d2 video , how to remove?
« Reply #9 on: June 12, 2011, 07:20:01 pm »

snip... it looks very tempting to treat the footages in the same way as i am used to with photographs. all is new land now so i love it if it stays a bit familiar ...snip

Rainer,

I think working with PS frame by frame got something noble if I can say. Craftman. Cooter seems to be happy with it, it's cine tradition, and having great respect for his experience I think it's for a good reason and worth checking this kind of workflow. But Cooter is also Cooter. I mean that I don't loose from my radar scope that he plays in another league than mine and has a crew. PS might be attractive but I'd like to have more details about the consequences of working with PS frame by frame. To me it looks like an ant's work. How many people in the studio are blocked retouching frame by frame on PS a 20 sec movie?
I'd like to know more about all that because yes, on one side it looks very attractive to be able to work with familiar tools, but what is the price to pay? Is it opening the Adora* box?   *(adobe+pandora)
Is it really usable for indy, small structures? Painting frame by frame....that is serious.

I'm not saying it is wrong, I just saying that I'd like to know more about that workflow and maybe a solution that work for some in his configuration would be too painfull for someone else.
Many other factors than just feeling "at home" are IMO to be considered and one seems to me: is is workable for a single person?

I would also like to stay in familiar land, I would really love to avoid more learning, long hours to master this or that software, but...is it really possible? and more importantly, is it really profitable?

You saw that removing in a sequence the motorcycle passing in the street from an high-end motion software costed exactly 5 seconds with a perfect result.

Maybe if you are disney or Holliwood, and got zillion of operators working in the shade, PS might be workable. I know, Cooter who uses it, is not Holliwood but not too far either. C'est presque Holliwood !

To me; and if he sees this post maybe he will correct me, I have the feeling that James is actually using PS mostly because he has work to acheive now and no time so far to reconfigured the studio and the training involved. They saw PS was usable right now with good results and that makes all sense. But I'm ready to eat my hat that they will get tired of frame by frame and will not be surprised if he ends with a Flame unit or something similar in a not so far future (specially when they will have a shower of video assignments with zero time because this is just the beginning). That is the sensation I have, it can be completly wrong of course or not that much wrong.

Some questions araise in my mind about the PS workflow

- What advantage gives PS over pure motion softwares? Is there something that can be done in PS that can't be done otherwise?

- What does the PS workflow means in terms of time consuming to acheive a simple goal, like for ex get rid of an element.

- Is the learning curve that easy, that familiar, or in the end it's lots of hours also?

- Why (and for what) experienced high-end video studios are using it? unless they have a cartoon sort of work. Those guys rarely loose time, so there must be a good reason if they
work also on PS, I just can't see it.

those kind of questions.

Before spending a lot of time in PS video learning Rainer, maybe it would be good to know more about the real workflow consequences on that. Hope you'll have lots of imputs on that matter, a very interesting topic IMO.

If I where in your case, I'd wait a little bit more imputs before entering on this. IMHO.

 
« Last Edit: June 13, 2011, 04:06:18 am by fredjeang »
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bcooter

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Re: dust in 5d2 video , how to remove?
« Reply #10 on: June 14, 2011, 05:25:50 am »



I'm not saying it is wrong, I just saying that I'd like to know more about that workflow and maybe a solution that work for some in his configuration would be too painfull for someone else.
Many other factors than just feeling "at home" are IMO to be considered and one seems to me: is is workable for a single person?

I would also like to stay in familiar land, I would really love to avoid more learning, long hours to master this or that software, but...is it really possible? and more importantly, is it really profitable?

 


We know photoshop.

We may get into heavier programs but I doubt it, I'll just outsource it, depending on budget.

Just finished a video where the last 4 seconds is a 40ish beautiful woman turns her head and looks up slightly above camera.  Great shot, except when she looks up and smiles here eyes get a unattractive bags under them and she pulls a vein on here camera right side of her head.

The client was willing to live with it, (which means they didn't want to spend any more money  . . . I guess) I wasn't willing to live with it, which means it had to be done.

So we retouched it out, (though you don't have to do every frame, just every other frame).   It looks great, the client wasn't even aware of how much a change it made until I showed the before and after,  now they are, but once again we know photoshop.

It took us about 4 hours, it will take my contracted retoucher about 1 or 2 hours and next time that will be our direction.

Anyway, don't think Hollywood, or any decent size budget doesn't take a long time in post.  I was sitting next to a women at Sony one day that works in effects.   She and her team did a 10 second shot of a famous actor supposedly climbing a cliff.  Really simple type of shot, except you don't put a 12 million dollar actor on a cliff.  It took her team (with unlimited equipment and software) 30 days for that shot.  It required stunt doubles, live action, green screen, cg, stills on location, tracking software, etc. etc. etc.

But that was for a $200 million dollar movie (including the advertising), which makes 30 days for a few seconds sound cheap and nobody is asking me  yet to do a $200 million dollar movie, (though I'll take it if it ever happens).

My point is our team can spend 4 months learning a software, or spend 2 hours fixing a face, let our retoucher do it for a grand, or send it out for 3 grand and let someone else do it on some kind of dedicated motion software.

Doesn't matter to me as long as it's good, it's profitable and I keep working.

We do what we do to learn, but we do what we do to get it done.

There are more than 1 way to skin a cat, (not that anyone should skin a cat), though for anyone adding motion, get ready to spend some money cause it ain't cheap.

Today we just bought a portable digital tech station that runs two powerbooks for the RED and for stills, with fans, raid 0's, readers, interfaces for headsets, worklights, fw 800, usb, ethernet etc and it costs over 20 grand, but it's worth it because it will save us about 1 hour per set up and process dailies on the fly. 

IMO

BC



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fredjeang

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Re: dust in 5d2 video , how to remove?
« Reply #11 on: June 14, 2011, 06:16:25 am »

Thanks James,

That's the kind of infos I was expecting because purely practicals.

I understand better your position on Ps, it makes all sense.

Cheers.
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