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Author Topic: Clarification on Print Resolution  (Read 142307 times)

John R Smith

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Re: Clarification on Print Resolution
« Reply #120 on: June 20, 2011, 07:04:10 am »

Ernst

Going back to your "restest" file for a moment - if it is printed sized at 720 ppi, should you be able to see the individual lines in block 1, column A? (with a loupe, of course).

John
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Re: Clarification on Print Resolution
« Reply #121 on: June 20, 2011, 07:09:41 am »

Bart - please do note that whilst it is called that, you should read the tool tip that comes up when you highlight that option - please see attached image.

One of the things that Finest Detail does is to provide for 720 input resolution - it's not the only thing it does and testing with lots of straight lines is not necessarily exactly the complete test between on and off that you might think if it were only changing input resolution.

It's not that the driver is receiving vector data, but it's expecting the rasterisation of that type of data and therefore can make certain assumptions when it does then process that data (not least of which is that the printer has higher resolution than PPI, because it has multiple dots per pixel.

Ernst - the non-Pro printers don't have a "Finest Detail" option.  Input resolution is based on a variety of other driver choices.

Outside of the standard driver, various RIPs can achieve other options and settings.
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Re: Clarification on Print Resolution
« Reply #122 on: June 20, 2011, 08:45:25 am »

Bart - please do note that whilst it is called that, you should read the tool tip that comes up when you highlight that option - please see attached image.

Well that's as cryptic as most 'info'. What does "make edges sharper" mean? Render them sharper than possible with upsampled 360 PPI, or does it add sharpening? I say the former, until someone can prove the opposite (which doesn't show from the printed test files sofar). In fact, increasing the sharpening on 720 PPI text would only increase the possibility of creating aliasing artifacts on text which is already optimally rasterized.

Quote
One of the things that Finest Detail does is to provide for 720 input resolution - it's not the only thing it does and testing with lots of straight lines is not necessarily exactly the complete test between on and off that you might think if it were only changing input resolution.

It's not the only thing it does? Sofar, nobody has come forward with any kind of proof for such a hypothesis.
Of course straight lines are not the only or best test. That's why I suggested the use of a zoneplate target earlier in the thread (I also mentioned to convert the GIF from indexed to RGB mode to avoid artifacts from Photoshop's faulty resampling). Such a target has no bi-tonal black and white pattern, but rather an approximation of a sinusoidal pattern of gray tints with all possible spatial frequencies, and at all possible angles. It is also very sensitive to aliasing artifacts, so it becomes easy to differentiate between good and bad driver implementations. It's also likely to show if there is more going on than just enabling 720 PPI input (or resampling input to 720 PPI where needed).

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It's not that the driver is receiving vector data, but it's expecting the rasterisation of that type of data and therefore can make certain assumptions when it does then process that data (not least of which is that the printer has higher resolution than PPI, because it has multiple dots per pixel.

So far, no proof of that has been presented, although I could think of a few things that could be done (but would take processing power that's available on a computer, but not in a printer). I'll repeat that a printer driver is not an image processing application, it's an interface to the basic functionality of a printer.

Quote
Outside of the standard driver, various RIPs can achieve other options and settings.

Indeed, and do a better job as well because there is much more processing power available than in an average printer, and data can be properly processed.

Cheers,
Bart
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Shane Webster

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Re: Clarification on Print Resolution
« Reply #123 on: June 20, 2011, 09:13:46 am »

I ran several tests on my 4900 using Ernst's file.  I've posted my horizontal dithering observations between my 4900 and 7880 on John's latest post and will try to keep this post to resolution and my 4900.  Please note, all tests discussed herein were printed using PK ink printed at 2880 high speed (my print heads are aligned), finest detail off and printed on Epson Exhibition Fibre Paper with EFP chosen as the output paper within the 4900's printer driver (an option not available with the 7880 driver).  Since, like John, I print from Lightroom, I'm interested in a file's output from LR and how changes within LR affect the output so all tests were printed from LR (no out sharpening or other alterations made to the file).  When IR is different than print resolution/output resolution ("PR"), LR handled any file processing via its Print Resolution box.  While I printed the full chart at an input resolution ("IR") of 180 across a couple of PRs, I decided to focus on Column A differences so other than IR 180, I'll just be discussing Column A output.

Not surprisingly, when IR is 720 and PR is 720, all appears fine.  Unless I'm printing a pano, I rarely have a file with an IR 720 so I quickly moved on.  With IR 360 and PR 360, there is no vertical banding across any sections.  The 720 ppi section, however, appears very dark gray due to line spacing but faint vertical lines can be seen when viewing with a loupe.  WIth IR 360 and PR 720, the 180 and 240 sections appear identical to the PR 360 result but the 360 and 720 sections appear lighter to the naked eye--with the 360 section appearing slightly lighter and the 720 section appearing much lighter.  No loupe is required to see the vertical lines of the 360 section, but the 720 section appears to have narrower vertical spacing at PR 720 than PR 360.  As a result, I'm not quite sure why PR 720's 720 ppi section appears lighter than PR 360's 720 ppi section--unless the driver is actually using a different black for that section. 

IR 240.  IR 240 and PR 240, all appears fine.  While the 720 ppi section's vertical lines are not as clean looking as any of the others, vertical lines are visible with a loupe and evenly spaced.  With PR 360, all sections appear lighter than their PR 240 counterparts (though 180, 240 and 360 barely so).  Still no banding but the 720 section is not quite as "clean" as the other sections but is much cleaner than PR 240 (resulting in the lighter gray I am assuming).  PR 720 produced the nicest results--no visible difference between the 180, 240 or 360 sections and a slightly lighter gray look to the 720 section probably due to "cleaner" vertical lines.  This result seems to support Jeff's advice that if your file is below 360 PPI, print from LR with PR 360 for optimum results--at least for IR 240.

IR 180.  IR 180 and PR 180, line thickness differences in Column D could be seen across all PPI sections.  The 180 and 240 Column A sections looked fine, the 360 section had barely perceptible vertical banding and the 720 section had noticeable vertical banding which, when viewed with a loupe appeared to be due to varying, repeatable differences in vertical line thickness.  WIth PR 360, all looks quite fine--no vertical banding of any sections and clearly defined vertical columns of the 720 section.  I thought I also printed it at PR 720 but can't find it at the moment---I printed other IRs at PR 720 so I'm not overly concerned at the moment--perhaps I'll reprint.

More often than not, I find I'm printing files at an IR other than 180, 240, 360 or 720.  As a result, I ran some additional tests with different IRs and had some surprising and interesting results.

IR 165.  IR 165 and PR 165 is painful to view.  The 180 ppi section looks fine, the 240 ppi section has vertical banding, the 360 section has vertical banding as well as vertical line convergence and the 720 section has an even greater frequency of vertical banding and vertical line convergence.  At IR 165 and PR 360, the 180 section is fine, the 240 section has horizontal banding, the 360 section only has vertical line convergence, though at a much tighter frequency making it look better than PR 165 (and the banding is gone), and the 720 section is similar to the 360 section--no banding but a greater frequency of vertical line convergence, but it is not a painful print to view.  Now the most surprising--IR 165 and PR 720-- everything looks perfect.  No banding or vertical line convergence across any sections.  The 720 ppi section's vertical lines could barely be made out by my naked eye and are clearly visible under the loupe.  I was very surprised at this result.

IR 265.  IR 265 and PR 265 looks horrible across all sections.  The 180 section has vertical banding, the 240 section has vertical banding and convergence, the 360 section has some banding but a greater convergence and the 720 section has quite a lot of vertical convergence.  The results are very bad.  IR 265 and PR 360 showed vertical frequency banding on both the 180 and 240 sections and vertical line convergence on both the 360 and 720 sections.  The 360 and 720 sections were ok to view, but the 180 and 240 sections were painful to view.  IR 265 and PR 720--the 180 section was fine, the 240 section still had vertical banding (albeit narrower but more frequent), the 360 section had vertical line convergence, but looked much better than the 360 version.  The 720 section had vertical line convergence (or thicker vertical lines at repeating distances), but at a greater frequency than the PR 360 version leading to a "cleaner" look.  Overall, the IR 265 sections all looked better at PR 720 than PR 360.

For me, other than making the waters slightly murkier, if my IR is 240 or less, PR 360 should be fine.  If IR is greater than 240, I'm going to change my PR to 720.  I'd be interested to read other 4900 user results.
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Bart_van_der_Wolf

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Re: Clarification on Print Resolution
« Reply #124 on: June 20, 2011, 12:03:52 pm »

I ran several tests on my 4900 using Ernst's file.  I've posted my horizontal dithering observations between my 4900 and 7880 on John's latest post and will try to keep this post to resolution and my 4900.  Please note, all tests discussed herein were printed using PK ink printed at 2880 high speed (my print heads are aligned), finest detail off and printed on Epson Exhibition Fibre Paper with EFP chosen as the output paper within the 4900's printer driver (an option not available with the 7880 driver).

Quote
For me, other than making the waters slightly murkier, if my IR is 240 or less, PR 360 should be fine.  If IR is greater than 240, I'm going to change my PR to 720.  I'd be interested to read other 4900 user results.

Hi Shane,

Why do you turn Finest Details off? Lightroom can make use of it. When LR upsamples for an output resolution of 720 PPI, and you do not enable that resolution in the printer driver, then the printer driver will downsample it to 360 PPI (potentially leading to aliasing artifacts). Maybe LR is smart enough to restrict the resampling to 360 PPI even if you select 720 PPI, but then you are selling yourself short on resolution.

Cheers,
Bart
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Shane Webster

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Re: Clarification on Print Resolution
« Reply #125 on: June 20, 2011, 02:45:02 pm »

Bart,

I have finest detail turned off because it was my understanding, and Jeff posted in response to Mike's question that
Quote
Correct...it aliases edges in vector graphics such as type or EPS graphics...not intended for natural photographic images.

I don't have finest detail on for my images so I didn't turn it on for the test file.
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John R Smith

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Re: Clarification on Print Resolution
« Reply #126 on: June 20, 2011, 03:11:35 pm »

I don't have finest detail on for my images so I didn't turn it on for the test file.

Shane, to perform this test (as I understand it) firstly you have to size the restest image to exactly 720 ppi. In LR this is tricky, but can be done. In the LR Print Module, choose a suitable paper size (A5 Portrait and place the file at the top) and size the file in the Layout Cell Size to precisely 14.11 x 9.326 cm. All you have to do is put in 14.11 as the long dimension, of course. You should see LR report this as 720 ppi. Then, you send it to the printer with no re-sampling in LR (in other words, the resolution box in the RH panel is not checked). If you can see a difference between the 720 and 360 line thickness in Column D, your printer is accepting 720 ppi input and outputting it correctly. If you can see no difference in line thickness (although the 720 lines might look a lighter gray) then the printer is resampling the incoming data to 360 ppi. In which case, check the "Finest Detail" box and try again. You should find that "Finest Detail" will switch the printer to look for 720 ppi input. This is more or less the present consensus of opinion  ;)

John
« Last Edit: June 20, 2011, 03:42:13 pm by John R Smith »
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hjulenissen

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Re: Clarification on Print Resolution
« Reply #127 on: June 20, 2011, 03:51:44 pm »

I dont have anything to contribute, but I'd like to thank you for making this thread a good read.

-h
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John R Smith

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Re: Clarification on Print Resolution
« Reply #128 on: June 20, 2011, 04:15:44 pm »

I dont have anything to contribute, but I'd like to thank you for making this thread a good read.

-h

h - we do our humble best  ;)

Actually, I'm just trying to get up to 1,000 posts . . .

John
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Re: Clarification on Print Resolution
« Reply #129 on: June 20, 2011, 06:32:51 pm »

Well that's as cryptic as most 'info'. What does "make edges sharper" mean?

Well, the point being, you can't just make the assertion that you did earlier with any more certainty at this point.  The vendor is telling us the purpopse of the design.


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Phil Brown

Bart_van_der_Wolf

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Re: Clarification on Print Resolution
« Reply #130 on: June 20, 2011, 06:52:16 pm »

Well, the point being, you can't just make the assertion that you did earlier with any more certainty at this point.  The vendor is telling us the purpopse of the design.

So does that mean that non-text and/or non-vector graphics, IOW continuous tone images, with fine edge/line detail (or even smooth gradients) will look worse when selecting the "Finest Detail" option?

Cheers,
Bart
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Mark D Segal

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Re: Clarification on Print Resolution
« Reply #131 on: June 20, 2011, 07:16:05 pm »

So does that mean that non-text and/or non-vector graphics, IOW continuous tone images, with fine edge/line detail (or even smooth gradients) will look worse when selecting the "Finest Detail" option?

Cheers,
Bart

The best way to know for sure is to print real-world photographs with the characteristics you describe here at several settings, and examine them in normal viewing conditions, and if it's really important enough, under a magnifier. I think that's the only way to escape the risk of a prolonged discussion akin to angels dancing on the head of a pin.
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Schewe

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Re: Clarification on Print Resolution
« Reply #132 on: June 20, 2011, 07:20:26 pm »

So does that mean that non-text and/or non-vector graphics, IOW continuous tone images, with fine edge/line detail (or even smooth gradients) will look worse when selecting the "Finest Detail" option?

That is the implication I've gotten from Epson engineers...it either does nothing or does something slightly sub-optimal to non-vector graphics (raster)...

Course, you don't believe the rest of what I have reported regarding the Epson driver not resampling image data in the print pipeline...not much reason to expect you believe this :~)
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Mark D Segal

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Re: Clarification on Print Resolution
« Reply #133 on: June 20, 2011, 07:34:01 pm »

That is the implication I've gotten from Epson engineers...it either does nothing or does something slightly sub-optimal to non-vector graphics (raster)...


Other than the engineers, there is also what the Manual says, and I'm looking at page 96:

"Choose a lower print quality setting for faster printing or SuperFine - 1440 dpi for best quality".

And for "Advanced Options, they say:

"Finest Detail for sharper edges on vecto-based data including text, graphics and line art. (This setting does not affect photographs and is not recommended for large files.)"

Adding the two statements together, this tells me we can select Finest Detail with SuperFine - 1440 and eat our cake and have it.
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Bart_van_der_Wolf

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Re: Clarification on Print Resolution
« Reply #134 on: June 20, 2011, 07:35:45 pm »

That is the implication I've gotten from Epson engineers...it either does nothing or does something slightly sub-optimal to non-vector graphics (raster)...

Course, you don't believe the rest of what I have reported regarding the Epson driver not resampling image data in the print pipeline...not much reason to expect you believe this :~)

Jeff,

You don't seem to be the kind of person to just believe what you are told, so what's your opinion after testing it yourself? You and Michael seem to have tested the "Finest Details" option, didn't you? So what's the outcome, does it hurt contone image quality? Does it allow to gain some resolution?

Cheers,
Bart
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Schewe

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Re: Clarification on Print Resolution
« Reply #135 on: June 20, 2011, 08:51:36 pm »

You and Michael seem to have tested the "Finest Details" option, didn't you?

No...I haven't tested with/without Finest Detail. I just now upsample in Lightroom to 720 PPI for printing. Since what the Epson guys have told me, that there's no benefit to photos, why would I bother?
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gromit

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Re: Clarification on Print Resolution
« Reply #136 on: June 20, 2011, 09:19:02 pm »

No...I haven't tested with/without Finest Detail. I just now upsample in Lightroom to 720 PPI for printing. Since what the Epson guys have told me, that there's no benefit to photos, why would I bother?

Because without Finest Detail it will be resampled back down to 360ppi (or 180ppi if printing on roll media).
« Last Edit: June 20, 2011, 09:21:02 pm by gromit »
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Farmer

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Re: Clarification on Print Resolution
« Reply #137 on: June 20, 2011, 11:20:41 pm »

Because without Finest Detail it will be resampled back down to 360ppi (or 180ppi if printing on roll media).

Roll or sheet has nothing to do with it.

To answer Bart - as I said originally, there's no particular downside except for longer processing times, for real world images.
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John R Smith

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Re: Clarification on Print Resolution
« Reply #139 on: June 21, 2011, 03:26:32 am »

Well, if Shane (or anyone else) would just follow my instructions using the restest file, and send it to his 4900 with and without the "Finest Detail" box checked, we would have the answer to this endless debate (at least for the 4900 and its driver). I don't know what the result will be, because as I reported, on my 2400 all photo input for gloss paper is expected to be 720 ppi. Which really did surprise me.

John
« Last Edit: June 21, 2011, 03:36:18 am by John R Smith »
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