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Author Topic: Clarification on Print Resolution  (Read 142418 times)

DougJ

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Re: Clarification on Print Resolution
« Reply #80 on: June 15, 2011, 01:46:42 pm »

Hi Jeff & others,

I use the latest version of Photokit Sharpener.

I've followed this long thread and frankly am in an overload state.  I'm now looking for some advice framed by this question: When using Photokit Sharpener, should I be upressing my file to 300 or 600 according to the Schewe Rule before I invoke PK Sharpener, or should I just let PK Sharpener work on the file at the "native" (ie, no up or down ressing) resolution that it has?

I print to only to an HP B9180, using only from Photoshop, and using a variety of papers with which I use the appropriate ICC profile and softproof.

TIA for any and all advice.

Ciao,

Doug


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Schewe

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Re: Clarification on Print Resolution
« Reply #81 on: June 15, 2011, 02:42:48 pm »

I'm now looking for some advice framed by this question: When using Photokit Sharpener, should I be upressing my file to 300 or 600 according to the Schewe Rule before I invoke PK Sharpener, or should I just let PK Sharpener work on the file at the "native" (ie, no up or down ressing) resolution that it has?

You should upsample (if you are going to) BEFORE you run the final output sharpening...PKS 2 can actually do both at once in the Output Sharpener for Inkjet.
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DougJ

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Re: Clarification on Print Resolution
« Reply #82 on: June 15, 2011, 03:35:00 pm »

Thanks for the reply, Jeff.

I think I'll leave PK Sharpener to do its thing--dare I say this, it is probably smarter than I am on the issue of sharpening.

Ciao,

Doug


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Ernst Dinkla

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Re: Clarification on Print Resolution
« Reply #83 on: June 16, 2011, 03:26:53 am »

I've removed this post because I realised that the question I was asking was actually a non-question. Further thinking has caused light to be shed on the purpose of Ernst's test image, so I will have to go back to the beginning and run my trials again. A new (and hopefully more coherent) post will follow.

John

Well I had my answer on your message ready and it had elements where I questioned the use of LR and the methods used. Some of what I wrote may have been visibIe in your results but other methods as described before by me should deliver more significant results. I would use Photoshop or the free Adobe Color Printer Utility or Qimage with all resampling/sharpening switched off. I simply do not know whether LR can pass image data without interfering, in whatever setting.

met vriendelijke groeten, Ernst
Try: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Wide_Inkjet_Printers/
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John R Smith

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Re: Clarification on Print Resolution
« Reply #84 on: June 16, 2011, 03:53:26 am »

Well I had my answer on your message ready and it had elements where I questioned the use of LR and the methods used. Some of what I wrote may have been visibIe in your results but other methods as described before by me should deliver more significant results. I would use Photoshop or the free Adobe Color Printer Utility or Qimage with all resampling/sharpening switched off. I simply do not know whether LR can pass image data without interfering, in whatever setting.

Ernst, I am really sorry to have wasted your message. I used LR because that is my software which I use for everything, so of course I wanted to know what that does in combination with the printer I have. Where I was being clueless was in not fully understanding the purpose of your test. I think I now realise, after studying my results, that the test file is designed to show up any resampling by the software or printer, and will show banding artefacts in columns A and D unless absolutely no resampling has taken place. Is that correct?

John
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Ernst Dinkla

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Re: Clarification on Print Resolution
« Reply #85 on: June 16, 2011, 05:45:55 am »

Ernst, I am really sorry to have wasted your message. I used LR because that is my software which I use for everything, so of course I wanted to know what that does in combination with the printer I have. Where I was being clueless was in not fully understanding the purpose of your test. I think I now realise, after studying my results, that the test file is designed to show up any resampling by the software or printer, and will show banding artefacts in columns A and D unless absolutely no resampling has taken place. Is that correct?

John

John,

Normally this test is used to see the actual maximum optical print resolution possible with a paper/ink/printer/quality setting. That information is a good base for making print quality selections in your driver, say you should not select a 720 PPI input quality for an uncoated paper if it delivers the same quality with 360 PPI input. It uses those resolution numbers to avoid resampling done by the printer driver or application you print from. So it is based on the assumption that the driver likes to have those numbers for input. If that theory is not correct then the target still can be used to proof that that theory is not correct.

In this case you only want to know whether there are certain input resolutions the driver relies on before any computations on the data are done by it. If it does not need certain input resolutions but dithers on any input feed right away (Jeff's opinion) then aliasing, moiré, should not (or hardly) be visible in any case. But instead if it starts computing by resampling odd resolutions first to the resolutions it likes to start with then it has to resample one way or another. The quality of that resampling routine could reveal whether it uses certain input resolutions, most likely the downsampling routine is worse (does not have ant-aliasing) than the upsampling routine. If both are good then it becomes more difficult to see whether the driver relies on certain input resolutions. I do not expect that for driver downsampling 2:1 size, while your LR 2:1 size reduction did that excellent (must have anti-aliasing). So any interference of LR on the downsampling should be taken out otherwise we are not measuring what should be measured.

If you print  a half size target 1440 PPI to a print quality setting that asks for 720 PPI do you see any kind of taxi block strips or worse emerge from the line patterns?
The same for a normal size target 720 PPI to a print quality setting that asks for 360 PPI ?
Any resampling done under the skin by the application = LR (or what I proposed) really taken out?

Blocking up that way should happen with an Epson 2400 in my expectation.  It is not the latest model so we still will have that question for more recent models.


met vriendelijke groeten, Ernst

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John R Smith

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Re: Clarification on Print Resolution
« Reply #86 on: June 16, 2011, 05:59:46 am »

Thanks, Ernst.

All understood (I think). I will run further tests this evening. So far I can say with certainty -

* The R2400 does make use of 720ppi files when printing at its best quality settings. The difference in line thickness in column D is apparent to the naked eye as well as under a loupe. I already knew this, by comparing 10x8 prints made at 360 and 720ppi.

* When output at exactly 720ppi from LR no artefacts are visible in the print, so I assume LR does not do anything to the file if resampling and output sharpening are switched off - and neither does the printer, with a 720ppi input.

As you say, the R2400 is a six-year old design, so any further results will not tell us much about the latest x880 and R3000 printers. But surely everybody else on the LL Forum is at this moment running their own tests?  ;)

John
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Mark D Segal

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Re: Clarification on Print Resolution
« Reply #87 on: June 16, 2011, 08:31:14 am »

John,

Normally this test is used to see the actual maximum optical print resolution possible with a paper/ink/printer/quality setting.

met vriendelijke groeten, Ernst

New: Spectral plots of +250 inkjet papers:

http://www.pigment-print.com/spectralplots/spectrumviz_1.htm



Ernst,

When time permits I may try this test on my Epson 4900. It will be some weeks from now I'm afraid, because I'm swamped, but when I do it I'd be pleased to report back.

Now, one curiosity - several times you have mentioned the word "optical resolution" in the context of printers. Does this make sense? For scanners, yes, because there are optics involved, but printers? What do you mean by this term? Isit what others call "native" resolution?
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Ernst Dinkla

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Re: Clarification on Print Resolution
« Reply #88 on: June 16, 2011, 09:54:06 am »

The print resolution as seen by the naked eye of a myopic 20 year old or if it has to be scientific, measured with something like the best optical microscope around + Imatest and an appropriate target to get MTF results. Nobody does that yet for testing to publish results but it would be a good thing if it happened. I use that term to make the distinction between actual print resolution and the printer's droplet addressing in DPI or input resolution in PPI. The same distinction that has to be made when scanner manufacturers quote sampling resolution numbers with DPI added where it should be SPI and suggest they are true PPI numbers where Imatest will show the actual resolution is way less than that (Epson) or a 10% lower (Nikon). But in MTFs numbers. ColorFoto published scanner resolution numbers in PPI measured by Image Engineering in Germany. A company that will be qualified to do MTF measurements on inkjet papers if they do not already. It is done on halftone offset printing etc so could be done on inkjet printing.

I have seen "native resolution" used in many ways, for Apple/Adobe it seems to be the resolution of old Mac screens 72 PPI (at least I see that in some documents), others refer to it as the resolution of the camera sensor and the translation to different sizes without resampling, I thought for a long time that it meant the input resolution(s) of a printer discussed here so for Epson 360-720 PPI (add 180 and 1440 PPI for other printers/settings).  I try to avoid the term now as it did become confusing and is to much device specific. So no, it is not what I see as optical print resolution. But the next guy may add a native resolution number to an inkjet paper :-)


met vriendelijke groeten, Ernst
New: Spectral plots of +250 inkjet papers:
http://www.pigment-print.com/spectralplots/spectrumviz_1.htm
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John R Smith

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Re: Clarification on Print Resolution
« Reply #89 on: June 16, 2011, 04:02:38 pm »

Ernst and everyone

Testing has proceeded this evening, and I do have some interesting results. My output was from Lightroom 3.4.1, running on Win 7 64-bit, and printing to my Epson R2400. The 2400 was set to its best output resolution, Photo RPM (5760 x 1440), High Speed off, and the paper was Epson Premium Glossy. The test file was sized in the print module to produce output at exactly 720 ppi initially, and then resized to produce other output resolutions for comparison. LR output sharpening was turned off.

I do understand that the original purpose of the restest file was establish what ppi and printer settings were appropriate for a given paper and print size combination. What we are trying to establish here (does the printer resample input data or not) is a bit different and not easy to pin down.

* If the test image is sized to exactly 720 ppi and sent to the printer direct so that there is no resampling whatsoever taking place, either in LR or at the printer (we assume), then we get a clean printed output with no artefacts, as you would expect. The difference between the 720 and 360 line widths in column ‘D’ is clearly apparent.

* I could not try Ernst’s 1440 ppi test, because LR will not report resolution settings above 720 – it just says 720+. So I had no way of accurately resizing the image to 1440.

* I could not try the 720 to 360 test, either, for reasons which will become clear.

* If the file is resized to any other value than 720 or 360 ppi, it results in strong vertical banding in columns A and D. The “wavelength” of the banding seems to vary according to the mathematical relationship between the resolution of the file and the output resolution at 720. The banding happens whether the file is downsampled to 720 or upsampled from a lower value. So any resampling results in artefacts, whether the resampling is done in LR (598 to 720, say) or we just send the file straight to the printer and let the Epson sort it out.

* If we take the image sized to say 686ppi and resample to 720ppi in LR, then send it to the 2400, or alternatively send the file to the printer at 686ppi with no processing in LR we get exactly the same banding, except that we can see even with the naked eye that the artefacts are more tightly defined and crisper in the LR processed version and the overall print quality is better. From this I infer that the printer does indeed resample a non-720 input, but that the LR sampling algorithms are superior.

* I also resampled the file in LR to 360 ppi and there were no artefacts, but the printed result was clearly inferior. The 720 and 360 lines in column ‘D’ become the same width, and the text becomes very smudgy.

* By now I had got rather curious, and tested the file with all the various quality settings on the 2400 for photo output on glossy paper. From the best downwards, they are called – Photo RPM, Best Photo, Photo, and Fine. Your Epson may have different names, but they probably do the same thing. I expected the output to shift from 720 to 360 somewhere down this list, but no – all of these are 720 ppi output. The quality does reduce a little, especially in the text, but the difference between the line thicknesses in column ‘D’ is still clearly apparent.

* So it seems that the Epson R2400, at any rate, when printing photos on glossy paper is always a 720 ppi device. Any other resolution you send to it gets resampled, and some quality is lost.

These tests back up my own observations when printing real photographs – a subject which we can expand on a bit tomorrow, perhaps. By the by, my “naked eye” may well be a bit different than yours, because I have been short-sighted since the age of 5 and I focus without spectacles at 6 inches. The results were also checked with an 8x loupe.

John
« Last Edit: June 16, 2011, 04:28:06 pm by John R Smith »
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Bart_van_der_Wolf

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Re: Clarification on Print Resolution
« Reply #90 on: June 16, 2011, 05:12:26 pm »

* If the file is resized to any other value than 720 or 360 ppi, it results in strong vertical banding in columns A and D. The “wavelength” of the banding seems to vary according to the mathematical relationship between the resolution of the file and the output resolution at 720. The banding happens whether the file is downsampled to 720 or upsampled from a lower value. So any resampling results in artefacts, whether the resampling is done in LR (598 to 720, say) or we just send the file straight to the printer and let the Epson sort it out.

Hi John,

Thanks for participating. What you have described here is completely consistent with sampling theory (Shannon/Nyquist theorem). Nyquist stated that, (in my own words) in order to unambiguously resolve a (spatial) frequency, it needs to be sampled at more than 2x that frequency. IOW, to resolve 360 PPI (or lower spatial frequency) image detail, it must be sampled at 720 or higher frequencies. Between 360 and 720 PPI there is still ambiguity (aliasing), and as always the aliases are larger than the sampling frequency. Ipso Facto, resampling takes place as witnessed by the resulting aliases.

Quote
* If we take the image sized to say 686ppi and resample to 720ppi in LR, then send it to the 2400, or alternatively send the file to the printer at 686ppi with no processing in LR we get exactly the same banding, except that we can see even with the naked eye that the artefacts are more tightly defined and crisper in the LR processed version and the overall print quality is better. From this I infer that the printer does indeed resample a non-720 input, but that the LR sampling algorithms are superior.

Indeed, as we can expect LR also uses some sharpening, but it cannot prevent (except for pre-blurring) the aliasing due to undersampling. The fact that you get exactly the same aliasing proves that the resampling takes place in both cases.

The final result on image quality is that when there is 360-720 PPI image detail in the available ink colors, it can be resolved as long as it is not a regular pattern. A regular pattern can aliase, other detail will be dithered to form intermediate colors. In addition, 720 PPI allows to sharpen at that output level, but it will also boost lower spatial frequencies.

Cheers,
Bart
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Ernst Dinkla

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Re: Clarification on Print Resolution
« Reply #91 on: June 17, 2011, 02:46:25 am »

Ernst,

When time permits I may try this test on my Epson 4900. It will be some weeks from now I'm afraid, because I'm swamped, but when I do it I'd be pleased to report back.


It would be nice if you do that with another program than Lightroom. I see that John's testing is hitting on limitations in that program, limitations that might be excellent for normal printing but obscure what we want to measure.

I think there is a chance to use a 3800 or 3880 of a friend next week so I can do a test too on an Epson.


met vriendelijke groeten, Ernst

New: Spectral plots of +250 inkjet papers:

http://www.pigment-print.com/spectralplots/spectrumviz_1.htm

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Ernst Dinkla

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Re: Clarification on Print Resolution
« Reply #92 on: June 17, 2011, 03:13:01 am »



* I could not try Ernst’s 1440 ppi test, because LR will not report resolution settings above 720 – it just says 720+. So I had no way of accurately resizing the image to 1440.

* I could not try the 720 to 360 test, either, for reasons which will become clear.

* If the file is resized to any other value than 720 or 360 ppi, it results in strong vertical banding in columns A and D. The “wavelength” of the banding seems to vary according to the mathematical relationship between the resolution of the file and the output resolution at 720. The banding happens whether the file is downsampled to 720 or upsampled from a lower value. So any resampling results in artefacts, whether the resampling is done in LR (598 to 720, say) or we just send the file straight to the printer and let the Epson sort it out.

* If we take the image sized to say 686ppi and resample to 720ppi in LR, then send it to the 2400, or alternatively send the file to the printer at 686ppi with no processing in LR we get exactly the same banding, except that we can see even with the naked eye that the artefacts are more tightly defined and crisper in the LR processed version and the overall print quality is better. From this I infer that the printer does indeed resample a non-720 input, but that the LR sampling algorithms are superior.

* I also resampled the file in LR to 360 ppi and there were no artefacts, but the printed result was clearly inferior. The 720 and 360 lines in column ‘D’ become the same width, and the text becomes very smudgy.

* By now I had got rather curious, and tested the file with all the various quality settings on the 2400 for photo output on glossy paper. From the best downwards, they are called – Photo RPM, Best Photo, Photo, and Fine. Your Epson may have different names, but they probably do the same thing. I expected the output to shift from 720 to 360 somewhere down this list, but no – all of these are 720 ppi output. The quality does reduce a little, especially in the text, but the difference between the line thicknesses in column ‘D’ is still clearly apparent.

* So it seems that the Epson R2400, at any rate, when printing photos on glossy paper is always a 720 ppi device. Any other resolution you send to it gets resampled, and some quality is lost.

These tests back up my own observations when printing real photographs – a subject which we can expand on a bit tomorrow, perhaps. By the by, my “naked eye” may well be a bit different than yours, because I have been short-sighted since the age of 5 and I focus without spectacles at 6 inches. The results were also checked with an 8x loupe.

John

John,

Thank you for the trials. I have some questions. You hit on a limitation in LR for the higher than 720 PPI resolution, you can not half the size of the image based on your 720 PPI test an by that get 1440 PPI without bothering whether LR says what resolution it has? The other one, you hit on a driver limitation for the glossy paper media preset to get 360 PPI input resolution, there are no matte paper choices or even uncoated paper choices that brings it down to 360 PPI? I am still not happy with LR for tests like this. It could even be that if the driver asks for 360 PPI Lightroom still sends 720 PPI, even if you resampled the file to 360 PPi in Lightroom.

So far your testing says to a degree that the 2400 driver has one fixed input resolution at least: 720 PPI.


met vriendelijke groeten, Ernst

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John R Smith

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Re: Clarification on Print Resolution
« Reply #93 on: June 17, 2011, 03:22:58 am »

Thank you for the trials. I have some questions. You hit on a limitation in LR for the higher than 720 PPI resolution, you can not half the size of the image based on your 720 PPI test an by that get 1440 PPI without bothering whether LR says what resolution it has? The other one, you hit on a driver limitation for the glossy paper media preset to get 360 PPI input resolution, there are no matte paper choices or even uncoated paper choices that brings it down to 360 PPI? I am still not happy with LR for tests like this. It could even be that if the driver asks for 360 PPI Lightroom still sends 720 PPI, even if you resampled the file to 360 PPi in Lightroom.
So far your testing says to a degree that the 2400 driver has one fixed input resolution at least: 720 PPI.

Ernst

As I said before, I use LR and I am interested in what LR does rather than running a printer test lab  ;) Re-sizing the file to half size is not an option because the units of measurement available (.01 cm) are simply not accurate enough to get exactly 1440 ppi without any confirmation from LR itself. I had a hell of a job getting it to exactly 720 ppi as it is - this is one of the issues with LR, of course. You are correct, probably there are 360 ppi settings somewhere in the matt paper choices but I never print on matt so this is of no interest to me. And after a certain point I was losing the will to live . . .

John
« Last Edit: June 17, 2011, 03:29:51 am by John R Smith »
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John R Smith

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Re: Clarification on Print Resolution
« Reply #94 on: June 17, 2011, 03:26:44 am »

The thing which annoys me about all of this is that we are having to establish, through tedious testing and experiment, the nuts and bolts of technicalities which should be freely available from the printer manufacturer. But still, another question -

How does the printer know what resolution the incoming print spool file actually is? Is this information in a file header somewhere, or does the printer analyse the data in some way? The reason I ask is because I think I can see a difference in output between -

* The file sized to 720 and sent direct to the 2400 and

* The file sized at 720 but with the resolution flag in LR also set to 720.

When there should be no difference at all. But if LR sets a flag in the file when it resamples, but not otherwise, this could account for it.

John
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Schewe

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Re: Clarification on Print Resolution
« Reply #95 on: June 17, 2011, 03:41:24 am »

The thing which annoys me about all of this is that we are having to establish, through tedious testing and experiment, the nuts and bolts of technicalities which should be freely available from the printer manufacturer.

If they knew what to tell you, they would...fact is, they're not really sure themselves.

The bottom line is that through testing, I'm pretty sure that the suggestion to upsample in LR 3 to either 360/300 or 730/600 PPI (depending on your printer with the 360/720 for Epson and the 300/600 for HP & Canon) is legit and will result in optimal results...

A lot depends on the original image quality. Ya really can't make a silk purse out of a sow's ear. The better the original image, the better the final output.
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John R Smith

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Re: Clarification on Print Resolution
« Reply #96 on: June 17, 2011, 03:56:26 am »

If they knew what to tell you, they would...fact is, they're not really sure themselves.


Jeff, printer manufacturers always specify the dithered output - but never tell us what the optimal input should be. When it would be extremely useful to know that, for the range of paper types and output resolutions which are supported by the hardware. It's a bit like a film manufacturer giving you all the info on how to dev a film, but nothing on how to expose it.

John
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Ernst Dinkla

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Re: Clarification on Print Resolution
« Reply #97 on: June 17, 2011, 04:03:20 am »


How does the printer know what resolution the incoming print spool file actually is? Is this information in a file header somewhere, or does the printer analyse the data in some way? The reason I ask is because I think I can see a difference in output between -

* The file sized to 720 and sent direct to the 2400 and

* The file sized at 720 but with the resolution flag in LR also set to 720.

When there should be no difference at all. But if LR sets a flag in the file when it resamples, but not otherwise, this could account for it.

John

John,


As I understand it from discussions with Mike Chaney of Qimage the application may send a Windows image file format to the driver so not a Tiff etc and my best guess is that that happens in both cases without any extra flag. What you probably observe is a sharpening step (or another adaptation step to the media you selected) in LR that is not switched off, one of those black box things that makes this program not ideal to reveal what the driver itself does. It is like testing an Imacon scanner without knowing that even a zero on the sharpening setting still means sharpening is done, you have to set  say a -60 or -120 number to get rid of the sharpening in its software.

The other way around, how the application could know what the driver likes to receive on input resolution, is by looking for an API call by the driver in Windows. that is where applications like Qimage and LR collect those numbers and use them for the best adaptations of the images to that request. Qimage does that more transparent and you can switch off all adaptations if needed, like for testing.


met vriendelijke groeten, Ernst

Try: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Wide_Inkjet_Printers/
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John R Smith

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Re: Clarification on Print Resolution
« Reply #98 on: June 17, 2011, 04:16:53 am »

What you probably observe is a sharpening step (or another adaptation step to the media you selected) in LR that is not switched off, one of those black box things that makes this program not ideal to reveal what the driver itself does.

Thanks, Ernst, that does make a lot of sense. Output sharpening in LR was certainly set to off, but as you say, something else may still be happening. The point is, that the output quality is better without the LR resolution flag set - you can see this particularly in the text. So you can see where this is going, can't you?

John
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Ernst Dinkla

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Re: Clarification on Print Resolution
« Reply #99 on: June 17, 2011, 04:40:31 am »

John,

So far it is telling me more about LR than any other thing. That text in images decreases in quality with programs aiming at good photo quality is not new to me either. There is a setting in printer drivers for fine detail that may enhance your text and lines even more (and could request 1440 PPI or 1200 input) but does not improve a photo image in most cases.  Different horses for different courses.

met vriendelijke groeten, Ernst

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