For the record, tethering P25 to Macbook Pro

[amsp]

It's been said in the past that you can't tether the P25 to new macbook pros without special cables that cut the power and forces the back to use battery, yada yada. Well, I just bought a 10$ FW400/FW800 converter and popped a battery in the back, works just fine.

[Doug Peterson]

The issue is not that it won't ever work. That would be preferable because then no one would ever use this setup.

The issue is that it may work, and then later, with no change of equipment it may start producing:
- lines in the image
- random disconnects
- longer than normal transfer time
- failure to connect

The reason is that many of the newer laptops have just barely enough firewire power to correctly power the P25 non plus. Any variation in it's power whether caused by random variation, aging of components, using the laptop on battery rather than mains power, changes to the power management system via software/firmware update etc can drop the power below what is needed. We've seen laptop/cable/back combinations that worked flawlessly for more than a year which suddenly, one morning stopped connecting.

All later backs (every P and P+ back other than the P20 non plus and P25 non plus) were given a change in hardware/firmware for a menu option to ignore the (potentially unstable) FW power and use instead the on-board battery. But the P20 and P25 do not have this option; if either of these backs "sees" firewire power it will use that power rather than the battery - EVEN IF that power starts to vary too much (i.e. it doesn't have the ability to automatically fail-over to the on-board battery).

So the solution for these two specific backs is one of two things:
- a powered FW hub (requires access to a standard power outlet), preferably a high-quality one that has been tested specifically in this application. We carry one such hub on our estore, HUB-400 or HUB-800, $79 or $99.
- a little dongle which removes the power from the fw cable, so that the back is forced to draw off it's own power. We sell one on our eStore for $35, CI-PI.

So one of two things is happening. Either your 800-400 adapter is cutting the power (in which case at the bottom center of your back's LCD you'll see a battery icon rather than a firewire icon). Or you're laptop/cable/back combo is a combo which is providing enough power - for now. If it's cutting the power than you've got essentially what we sell in another form with our CI-PI. If it's not cutting the power than you've not dealt with the underlying potential problem and are asking for trouble.

I'd strongly strongly encourage you, if you plan on using that combo in situations in which you need absolute dependability, to have one of those two options in your shooting bag.

Doug Peterson (e-mail Me)
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[amsp]

First of all, like I said right now it's working perfectly, no issues what-so-ever. Second, you don't ship outside the US. Third, are you 100% sure the P25 with the latest firmware isn't able to use the battery for power? I'm asking because I remember a couple of years back I was shooting a catalog (this was on the pre-intel powerbook) and when I started shooting without a battery in the back I had the problems you mention, but as soon as I used a battery in the back the problems disappeared and didn't return for the 2 weeks I was shooting. Just saying.

[Doug Peterson]

[...]are you 100% sure the P25 with the latest firmware isn't able to use the battery for power?

Yes I am sure.

(for anyone else reading here... again: P25/P20 do not have this capability, all other P and P+ backs, including the P20+ and P25+ does have this option)

I don't know - maybe you think I am posting to sell a lot of these $35 dongles, but I can assure you that's not remotely worth my time; I only posted because I am nervous for you. We have had many customers who likewise thought their setup was rock solid only to later run into problems. Feel free to ignore my advice. But it's given with extensive experience, good intentions, and very little self-interest (not that I don't have self interest in general participating in the fora - just not in this particular post).

Doug Peterson (e-mail Me)
__________________

Head of Technical Services, Capture Integration
Phase One Partner of the Year
Leaf, Leica, Cambo, Arca Swiss, Canon, Apple, Profoto, Broncolor, Eizo & More

National: 877.217.9870  |  Cell: 740.707.2183
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Buy Capture One 6 at 10% off

[UlfKrentz]

Doug,

your answer did not sound to me as if you make your fortune out of selling 35$ dongles, and actually I was impressed how much time you probably spent on answering and helping us. Thank you for that.
Now as a leaf user I was wondering if this might apply to me too. As leaf backs cannot be powered by the battery when tethered your workaround would not be applicable. Though we never had any problems (Aptus75S / AptusII 10 tethered to MacPro or first unibody 15") I´d like to hear if we only might have been lucky and run into trouble. We always shoot tethered and we are in serious need of a reliable workflow.

Cheers, Ulf

Yes I am sure.

(for anyone else reading here... again: P25/P20 do not have this capability, all other P and P+ backs, including the P20+ and P25+ does have this option)

I don't know - maybe you think I am posting to sell a lot of these $35 dongles, but I can assure you that's not remotely worth my time; I only posted because I am nervous for you. We have had many customers who likewise thought their setup was rock solid only to later run into problems. Feel free to ignore my advice. But it's given with extensive experience, good intentions, and very little self-interest (not that I don't have self interest in general participating in the fora - just not in this particular post).

Doug Peterson (e-mail Me)
__________________

Head of Technical Services, Capture Integration
Phase One Partner of the Year
Leaf, Leica, Cambo, Arca Swiss, Canon, Apple, Profoto, Broncolor, Eizo & More

National: 877.217.9870  |  Cell: 740.707.2183
Newsletter | RSS Feed
Buy Capture One 6 at 10% off

[amsp]

I did in no way think you were posting to sell any 35$ dongles, I was just sharing my own experience just like you do, so no need for the attitude. I would probably have bought the thing you're selling if you shipped outside the states just to be sure, but you don't. So I guess I'll just keep shooting and keep my fingers crossed. I'll update this post if it suddenly decides to stop working I guess. Oh, and no need for you to feel nervous for me, if all else fails there's always CF cards

[bcooter]

The reason is that many of the newer laptops have just barely enough firewire power to correctly power

I've tethered about everything.  Valeos, A22's, A65's, p30, P30+, P21+, Every 1ds Canon, 5d's, Nikons . . . even tried to tether a Leica M8 (don't try this at home) and I can promise you, the very moment you think your bulletproof, it will stop working.

We test everything, prior to working, we check everything, we backup everything and it's strange.  We can just cook along for days, not a problem, not a restart, then boom, the world ends.

Maybe the cord, maybe the battery (in either the computer or camera), maybe the contacts, (it's usually the contacts), but the one thing I know is to have a ready backup station powered up and on standby.

Also we keep another back/camera/lens, or in the case of Canons, camera/lens sitting there one standby.   

Nothing is a buzz kill and client foot tapper than for the word's "hold it, uh . . . I  think I better restart the computer". 

I keep one of the first generation 17" intel books, the one with the fw 400 and 800 connectors and never have had a problem with this machine . . . never, though the assistants hate using it because it's slower, I'll keep it until it just won't work anymore because it's saved my bacon a dozen times.

It mounts on a tripod and we just bag it and set it somewhere next to the tech station.  The moment I don't see that little firewire icon, I just yank the cord, go straight to the powerbook and keep working.

We can do it so fast even the client don't know that we changed computers as long as the same client monitor is transfered over.

But for the record, when we got our first p30 prior to the p31+  we tethered without battery and had big issues, with camera battery none.  Could have been the luck of the draw, but still it made a difference.



IMO

BC

[Steve Hendrix]

Doug,

your answer did not sound to me as if you make your fortune out of selling 35$ dongles, and actually I was impressed how much time you probably spent on answering and helping us. Thank you for that.
Now as a leaf user I was wondering if this might apply to me too. As leaf backs cannot be powered by the battery when tethered your workaround would not be applicable. Though we never had any problems (Aptus75S / AptusII 10 tethered to MacPro or first unibody 15") I´d like to hear if we only might have been lucky and run into trouble. We always shoot tethered and we are in serious need of a reliable workflow.

Cheers, Ulf

I would say that if someone is in serious need of a reliable tethered workflow, then it should be assumed that at some point time, your tethering will fail. It is more likely to fail on laptops and iMacs. Ulf, in your case, I would have on hand multiple firewire cables (of course), preferably the Leaf-supplied cables (at least as backup if using a non-Leaf cable as your primary), and a powered firewire hub/repeater. As BCooter mentioned, having an extra laptop somewhere nearby ready to go isn't a bad idea either, as tethering involves many devices capable of playing a negative role besides the digital back and cables.


Steve Hendrix

[bcooter]

I would say that if someone is in serious need of a reliable tethered workflow, then it should be assumed that at some point time, your tethering will fail. It is more likely to fail on laptops and iMacs. Ulf, in your case, I would have on hand multiple firewire cables (of course), preferably the Leaf-supplied cables (at least as backup if using a non-Leaf cable as your primary), and a powered firewire hub/repeater. As BCooter mentioned, having an extra laptop somewhere nearby ready to go isn't a bad idea either, as tethering involves many devices capable of playing a negative role besides the digital back and cables.


Steve Hendrix

I use a leaf cable and a gold non powered repeater for my phase backs.  They work and last a long time.

As far as computers, even desktops are a crap shoot as they can get pretty slammed around traveling by air.

The ONE I mac I know that won't fail is the last white 24" I-mac.  It's ugly and not cutting edge but the power supply is constant.

Also whatever my 2nd generation 17" intel book doesn't fail, at least not yet and I've had it a long time.

Still, the thing that kills all tethering is lack of preparation.

If time permits, we take all the contax's all the backs, all the Canons all the lenses and lay them on on a huge clean white cloth and polish all the electrical contacts, from lenses, to body, to battery connectors, to viewfinders (the Mamiya doesn't have a changeable finder so scratch that, I threw that in to bug Steve).

Anyway, if we do this, I rarely have a failure, but once again I have more than two of everything, triple little things like firewire cords and repeaters.

If it's all clean it usually runs like clockwork. 

For the firewire repeater cable ask Rick Ashead, that use to work a Leaf USA.  He knows the one.

IMO

BC

[UlfKrentz]

Hi Steve,

thanks for your answer, so what I take from that, there is no known issue with leaf and the macbook pro, apart from that everything could (and will) fail when used long enough. This meets my personal experience.
@BC Now regarding preparation I can only second that, I hope we did our homework: Our units are build into a flightcase, everything is fixed with velcro, the cables cannot move, we have a small uninteruptable powersupply build into the case, so the the units are always "mains" powered. There is a calibrated display inside and we shoot to a mirrored drive to be protected in case a HD should fail, and yes we have spare cables, repeaters, HDs etc with us. The only thing that is allowed to happen is that someone hits the FW cable, the plugs in the (passive) repeater are not fixed and act like a "fuse". I consider these units one of the best investment we ever made, just flip it up, connect the camera and ready to go. Usually not a single hickup. We didn´t experience problems with the connectors, but we always protect them. Thanks for your input.

Cheers, Ulf

I would say that if someone is in serious need of a reliable tethered workflow, then it should be assumed that at some point time, your tethering will fail. It is more likely to fail on laptops and iMacs. Ulf, in your case, I would have on hand multiple firewire cables (of course), preferably the Leaf-supplied cables (at least as backup if using a non-Leaf cable as your primary), and a powered firewire hub/repeater. As BCooter mentioned, having an extra laptop somewhere nearby ready to go isn't a bad idea either, as tethering involves many devices capable of playing a negative role besides the digital back and cables.


Steve Hendrix

[bcooter]

@BC Now regarding preparation I can only second that, I hope we did our homework: Our units are build into a flightcase, everything is fixed with velcro, the cables cannot move, we have a small uninteruptable powersupply build into the case, so the the units are always "mains" powered. There is a calibrated display inside and we shoot to a mirrored drive to be protected in case a HD should fail, and yes we have spare cables, repeaters, HDs etc with us. The only thing that is allowed to happen is that someone hits the FW cable, the plugs in the (passive) repeater are not fixed and act like a "fuse". I consider these units one of the best investment we ever made, just flip it up, connect the camera and ready to go. Usually not a single hickup. We didn´t experience problems with the connectors, but we always protect them. Thanks for your input.

Cheers, Ulf

Ulf,

I know you have it together.  It's just many times I've had calls from friends saying their ___________ won't tether, only to find out they've never cleaned a contact, never tested their system fully before shooting and only have one ratty fw or usb 2 cable.

If I was a repair person or dealer I'd probably pull my hair out.

But, given my perfect camera/perfect world scenario I'd have the screen size and touch screen of the Leaf, The iso, skin tones,  lens range and widespread rentals of the Hasselblad 40, the intuitive interface of lightroom, the reliability and battery powered tethering of a Phase, the screen and live focus of a 5d2, the autofocus of a Nikon and the analog feel and build quality of my contax(s).

And  . . . fast usb 3 tethering, because I have a feeling the firewire is on it's way out.

Oh yea, the costs of a 5d2, actually make that a used 5d.

There you go.

IMO

BC

[Steve Hendrix]

Hi Steve,

thanks for your answer, so what I take from that, there is no known issue with leaf and the macbook pro, apart from that everything could (and will) fail when used long enough. This meets my personal experience.
@BC Now regarding preparation I can only second that, I hope we did our homework: Our units are build into a flightcase, everything is fixed with velcro, the cables cannot move, we have a small uninteruptable powersupply build into the case, so the the units are always "mains" powered. There is a calibrated display inside and we shoot to a mirrored drive to be protected in case a HD should fail, and yes we have spare cables, repeaters, HDs etc with us. The only thing that is allowed to happen is that someone hits the FW cable, the plugs in the (passive) repeater are not fixed and act like a "fuse". I consider these units one of the best investment we ever made, just flip it up, connect the camera and ready to go. Usually not a single hickup. We didn´t experience problems with the connectors, but we always protect them. Thanks for your input.

Cheers, Ulf

Correct Ulf - there is no overriding known issue for firewire tethering with Leaf, assuming that operations are conducted correctly and there is sufficient stable output available for firewire power, which will of course vary from computer to computer. In almost all cases, a good powered firewire hub/repeater is essential at least as a reliable backup in case firewire power fluctuates for some kooky reason. You do know computers are kooky, right? 



Steve Hendrix

[Imaginara]

Now wow. This forum is such a source of good information sometimes =)  I have just recently (after a year of it working perfectly) experienced problems when shooting tethered with my P25 to my macbook white (not Pro, and the last generation that had a FW400 connector on it). Now if i disconnect and shoot to battery and card, everything works perfect but once i tether, it shoots for a few minutes then disconnects.

Going to try with an active FW hub asap.

cheers!