Epson Exhibition Fiber - a Warning and a Question

[DeanChriss]

I tried this paper shortly after it first became available. I grew to love it for many images, but it was so expensive I didn't use much of it. Then it went on "sale" and I bought several boxes each of 8.5x11, 13x19, and 17x22.  After using quite a bit of this I purchased again in the same sizes and added some 24x30. When I got to using boxes from this second purchase I found an incredibly high number of defective sheets in boxes of every size. Most of the defects are a tiny black speck, typically one and sometimes two per sheet. These are a little bigger than a pin prick, but painfully obvious if they end up in a light part of the image. A few of the defects are a larger brown "fleck" in the surface. I just opened a new box of 8.5x11 and went through 7 sheets before finding the first one with no defects. This is the worst so far in terms of number of bad sheets, but probably not the worst in terms of paper area. Also of note is the fact I purchased these from two different online sources so there's probably quite a bit of bad paper out there. Before this last purchase I'd read a couple of posts about defects, but having used a lot of this paper with no defects at all I stupidly felt confident in buying more.

Since I'll never buy another box of Epson Exhibition Fiber paper, I'd love to find a higher quality substitute with a similar surface and equal or heavier weight. I've heard that Innova Fibaprint Ultrasmooth is similar, but  I know nothing of its quality and I know it's a lighter weight. Any input at all is appreciated.

[Mark D Segal]

Have you notified Epson about this? I have no doubt they would be very interested to examine this carefully. Amongst the possibilities -  they are having QC problems from the mill they are using, or there were storage issues with the paper once it left the factory, or the paper isn't a genuine Epson product.

On your question about the Innova - yes - somewhat similar in terms of weight and tone (coldish), but the surfaces are rather different. The EFP is a smoother-textured paper.

[DeanChriss]

Have you notified Epson about this? I have no doubt they would be very interested to examine this carefully. Amongst the possibilities -  they are having QC problems from the mill they are using, or there were storage issues with the paper once it left the factory, or the paper isn't a genuine Epson product.

On your question about the Innova - yes - somewhat similar in terms of weight and tone (coldish), but the surfaces are rather different. The EFP is a smoother-textured paper.

I haven't reported this yet, but I will. I also found this thread about it here: http://www.luminous-landscape.com/forum/index.php?topic=47839.0 , so i'm guessing it won't be news to Epson.

Thanks for the Innova info. I really wouldn't want more texture than the EEF and that with the lighter weight means it's probably not what I'm after. FWIW, I've got a bunch of Ilford GFS that I use for images that need a warmer paper. It's definitely not an EEF substitute. I've had a couple defects in a 24" roll of this (edit- which i find acceptable), and the sheets have been fine. I've also tried Harman FBAI bright white but it's too shiny for my use and others have told me of getting too many defective sheets for practical use. Maybe that's improved as my last knowledge of it is from over a year ago.

[Ernst Dinkla]

I haven't reported this yet, but I will. I also found this thread about it here: http://www.luminous-landscape.com/forum/index.php?topic=47839.0 , so i'm guessing it won't be news to Epson.

Thanks for the Innova info. I really wouldn't want more texture than the EEF and that with the lighter weight means it's probably not what I'm after. FWIW, I've got a bunch of Ilford GFS that I use for images that need a warmer paper. It's definitely not an EEF substitute. I've had a couple defects in a 24" roll of this (edit- which i find acceptable), and the sheets have been fine. I've also tried Harman FBAI bright white but it's too shiny for my use and others have told me of getting too many defective sheets for practical use. Maybe that's improved as my last knowledge of it is from over a year ago.

Also consider another issue with EEF that may stretch to its Innova cousin too:

http://www.luminous-landscape.com/forum/index.php?action=printpage;topic=49706.0

met vriendelijke groeten, Ernst

New: Spectral plots of +250 inkjet papers:

http://www.pigment-print.com/spectralplots/spectrumviz_1.htm

[Sven W]

Thanks for the Innova info. I really wouldn't want more texture than the EEF and that with the lighter weight means it's probably not what I'm after. FWIW, I've got a bunch of Ilford GFS that I use for images that need a warmer paper. It's definitely not an EEF substitute. I've had a couple defects in a 24" roll of this (edit- which i find acceptable), and the sheets have been fine. I've also tried Harman FBAI bright white but it's too shiny for my use and others have told me of getting too many defective sheets for practical use. Maybe that's improved as my last knowledge of it is from over a year ago.

I'm also looking for a substitute for the EEF. But more for scratch resistance. Pity, because it's a beautiful paper for color work.
Besides the EEF, I've been using Canson Baryta (which is very similar to the IGFS) for b&w. For its warmer tone.
But the last month I started to print color on the Canson, and I must say it perform extremely well also for color images.

/Sven

[Mark D Segal]

I'm also looking for a substitute for the EEF. But more for scratch resistance. Pity, because it's a beautiful paper for color work.
Besides the EEF, I've been using Canson Baryta (which is very similar to the IGFS) for b&w. For its warmer tone.
But the last month I started to print color on the Canson, and I must say it perform extremely well also for color images.

/Sven

Of course Canson Baryta and Ilford GFS are fine for colour printing. (They should be as they were designed for that.) But for scratch resistance - not great. None of them are. All these papers need to be handled with some care. There may be differences of degree between them, but in general the surfaces are kind of soft.

Beyond this, it's matter of taste whether one wants papers with OBAs that fade overtime, or to start with papers that don't have them, (or only trace amounts of them), don't run this risk, and are therefore warmer and somewhat less "brilliant". BTW, I find that under dark storage, Epson Enhanced Matte, which is loaded with OBA has done well over the 12 years since I started printing photographs using an archival inkjet printer. Posted on a fridge door, you can see some evidence of OBA fading over a period of several years, but it's gradual and even. I don't use it any longer. I prefer the richness and higher DR of IGFS.

[Ernst Dinkla]

It is correct that all the Fiber/Baryta qualities around Lab  b -4 show very identical spectral plots which could indicate they act similar to EEF.
The exceptions are the Hahnemühle Fine Art Baryta and Pearl that show less similarity.
At b -2 there are more qualities like Tecco, Pictorico.


met vriendelijke groeten, Ernst

New: Spectral plots of +250 inkjet papers:

http://www.pigment-print.com/spectralplots/spectrumviz_1.htm

[Sven W]

Of course Canson Baryta and Ilford GFS are fine for colour printing. (They should be as they were designed for that.) But for scratch resistance - not great. None of them are. All these papers need to be handled with some care. There may be differences of degree between them, but in general the surfaces are kind of soft.

Well, when printing color I prefer neutral, kinda cool white paper base. Remember that ink is semi-transparent.
And with only a slightest warm base I have a totally different print. Or expression.
The icc profile take care of the paper white. If it's build for that reason. Not all are.
Of course you can edit and tweak away a more warm approach. But I feel it's still a difference.

I've learned through the years, to handle prints to avoid scratches. Sometimes you miss something for a second; and there it
goes, right in paper basket 
Soft gloves, not touching anything, tissues between and I managed last week to print over 80 prints 44x30" on Canson Bayta
without a single scratch.

/Sven

[davidh202]

It is really unfortunate that EF has been getting bad press because of the black spot issue. I really like the paper!
I'm sure Epson will make good on the bad stuff contact them there isn't much we can do except commiserate your unhappiness!

I purchased 3  24" rolls back in September when the 24" rolls were first introduced (3 for price of 2 on sale). I'm still using my first roll and had a black spot pop up in the wrong place last week which caused me to do a reprint for the first time.

I find that the paper is very sensative to surface damage when freshly printed and have learned to be very careful , put an oversize slip sheet of AF matting on it and leave under a 1/4"  glass sheet overnight. This not only helps the drying but also relaxes the curl from the roll very nicely.

I have always had a 3' x 4' sheet of 1/4" glass plate on a dedicated table that I use for cooling and weighting down dry mounted prints when they are removed from the press.
It is really great!

[John R Smith]

I don't recall this problem of a very delicate surface when I was printing on baryta papers in the darkroom. I suppose that it's because the pigment inks in digital printing sit on the very top surface of the paper, rather than the silver halide being a layer or so down.

Certainly the Harman Gloss FB that I use is very prone to surface marking, even when the ink is thoroughly dry. But I have to say that I have not noticed any QC problems with it over the past three years, and I've printed a lot of sheets of A4, A3 and A3+.

John

[FrankG]

I just started a roll of 17 Inch Exhibition Fiber and have noticed the defect too - grrrr.....

[Mark D Segal]

................... I suppose that it's because the pigment inks in digital printing sit on the very top surface of the paper, rather than the silver halide being a layer or so down.

Certainly the Harman Gloss FB that I use is very prone to surface marking, even when the ink is thoroughly dry. But I have to say that I have not noticed any QC problems with it over the past three years, and I've printed a lot of sheets of A4, A3 and A3+.

John

Yes, Richard Benson makes this point as well in his book The Printed Picture.

I'm using Ilford Gold Fibre Silk - in some quantity - since it came onto the market, and have no QC problems with it either.

[Sven W]

I don't recall this problem of a very delicate surface when I was printing on baryta papers in the darkroom. I suppose that it's because the pigment inks in digital printing sit on the very top surface of the paper, rather than the silver halide being a layer or so down.
John

That's right, but I think the topcoat polymer (or whatever) is to delicate, compared to the harder gelatin (2 layers) found in the chemical print.
Wikipedia: "A gelatin silver print is composed of four layers: paper base, baryta, gelatin binder, and a protective gelatin layer or overcoat"

/Sven

[davidh202]

   Not to belabor the issue but I very carefully unrolled half a roll of EX Fiber today before printing and there were no additional black spots.

      I think it is safe to assume that there are processes in the manufacture of all sorts of products from raw materials that can allow for a certain % of impurities to be included in the final product.
      I have been a custom framer for 20 odd years and come across many defects in top grade Rag and Alpha Cellulose mats. Some include black spots in the bevel when it is cut.Imagine hitting the exact spot in a 32x40" mat that has a 1/4mm black spot!.
      In fabrics they're called nubs, in glass making the impurities are called stones.
Even the FDA guidelines for food,(Hotdogs for instance) allow for a % of rat hairs..EWW

[DeanChriss]

   Not to belabor the issue but I very carefully unrolled half a roll of EX Fiber today before printing and there were no additional black spots.

      I think it is safe to assume that there are processes in the manufacture of all sorts of products from raw materials that can allow for a certain % of impurities to be included in the final product.
      I have been a custom framer for 20 odd years and come across many defects in top grade Rag and Alpha Cellulose mats. Some include black spots in the bevel when it is cut.Imagine hitting the exact spot in a 32x40" mat that has a 1/4mm black spot!.
      In fabrics they're called nubs, in glass making the impurities are called stones.
Even the FDA guidelines for food,(Hotdogs for instance) allow for a % of rat hairs..EWW

I agree, and I have also found those spots and flecks on mat bevels and on rag mat surfaces too. My problem with Exhibition Fiber is that approximately 30% of the sheets in my last letter-sized box were like this, and it's looking like between 15% and 30% of the sheets in larger sized boxes are bad too. Some others in the posts I referenced earlier had even higher defect rates. In fairness, I previously had boxes of this paper with between zero and 2 sheets exhibiting defects, which was "OK" with me. But on average the waste is way too high for practical use. I have not tried this paper in rolls, which were not even available when I bought the sheets. Perhaps things have improved.

None of this would be an issue if so many prints didn't look so darned good on this paper! When it first came out I made test prints of a common profile evaluation image on it and several other papers that included Harman and GFS and other papers with semi-glossy surfaces. I personally preferred the EEF based solely on how it looks. I then had a number of people, including professional framers, photographers, and "regular people" compare these, and EEF was by far the favorite. Interestingly enough, my other paper of choice, GFS, came in dead last. All papers were properly profiled and printed on an Epson 7900. Side by side the colors were right on, so I'm sure the choices were a matter all the other qualities imparted by the papers themselves.

Also, thanks to everyone who replied. All of the info is quite useful.