Does Leaf afi have any future?

[Gigi]

Jumping into this discussion is like joining a party where you know half the folks, and the others are just visiting. Like a few of the posters, I have been a Rollei fan for some time, starting c. 1993 with the 6003 camera. Over the years, as people have lost faith, I've gladly picked up Schneider lenses for a song, and now have a stable that bewilders even the tech junky in spiritual residence.

The AFI or Hy6 is a very fine addition and forward take on the MFD camera body, and it is astounding to me how fine it is to use. I suppose there are easier and more automated approaches, but the range of possible uses - from field to studio, from auto to total manual, continues to amaze.

As to the question "is it really dead?" , it depends on your viewpoint. If you are looking for active strong corporate presence, instant local repairs, and rentals - yes, its dead. On the other hand, dead systems rely on a few lonely outposts for service, and no home base.... and that's not the case here. What is true is that there is a smallish company making a living out of making and servicing this equipment. If you can deal with the smaller European manufacturing notion (no price lists posted, all communication is personal, but they take care of you), then it can work. Again, research is the key.

I mentioned to Eric a while back that I prefer the more mechanical feel of the older 6008 cameras... but that said, no way am I going back. They were film based, this is either film or digital back, as you wish. There is a lot of difference and advantages to the new camera body (new? well, seems that way still, but it is also very traditionally a modular MF camera).

One other thing. For whatever one says, or however one analyzes it, I'm finding that I'm taking and getting pictures that I never would have gotten before. The camera and system are "taking" this photog places never explored before. I couldn't have predicted this, and its hard to explain, but good tools do that. They make you better. And they help you make yourself better.

[EricWHiss]

Eric,

"Vastly superior" in every way?  Really?
David

David,
You've misquoted me.  I said vastly superior in nearly every way and truly I'm surprised to see you of all people defending the DF body, as its like a clunky old pick up truck comparatively.  I had one briefly on loan and could not get rid of that thing fast enough. Terrible viewfinder, and bad AF accuracy contrary to your report - it was off so far that I could not get a single part of a face in sharp focus at f/13 for head and shoulder type portraits.    I shot it in the studio and could not sync at even 1/125 of second with some lenses. At that slow speed you still can get blur on hand held shots when the strobes are not fast. When you push the shutter button, the finder goes dark for an eternity - so long you lose your connection to the subject, and then finally the shutter fires.  What terrible lag.  I hated having to pull out and replace the 6 batteries all the time.    As a 4th generation design, its an embarrassment.  What do you think the Hy6 will be like after 4 cycles?  Everyone argued the supposed lack of wide lenses issue, but its not bothered me.  I have the 30/3.5 which is wider in 6x6 format than 28 in 645 and use lensfix with great results - search the forum for my pictures.   The focal plane shutter and one wide lens option are nearly the only advantages such a camera like the DF might have, however these are minor issues. In practice shooting MF in studio or outside its rare to need faster than 1/500. Pocket wizards only go to 1/500 and most strobe durations are a longer than 1/1000 at medium settings.  

The Hy6 has the shutter adapter and today I shot with a leica photar and an M-componon using a twin macro flash set up with TTL exposure metering.  Not a problem to adapt other lenses either, and the rollei setup has less vibration than the focal plane shutter so I don't see the DF having an advantage at all. If I want to I can move to the X-Act2 for movements and other configurations.  The hy6 has 1/3 stops in aperture and shutter, focus trapping, focus bracketing, focus screen alignment, a display in the grip with an exposure histogram,  focus distance, battery voltage. You can set the Hy6 for ultra fast release and trigger the shutter in 2 milliseconds.  That's fast!  If you can get the DF to do it under 200 ms - tell me how. You can configure custom settings everywhere, and its way more ergonomic than the DF.   Can you adjust exposure and flash compensation or ISO settings without taking your hand off the grip like you can on the Hy6.  Mirror up is a button near the thumb.  You already mentioned the rotating sensor...  What more do you want?  

Lenses?  Okay I haven't check the range of the Mamiya but how many of them have leaf shutters?  All of the rollei lenses do and you can get 30, 40, 50, 55pcs, 60, 80, 90, 110, 120, 150, 180, 300, 500.  
Fast lenses 50/2.8, 80/2, 110/2, 180/2.8, 300/4      

I guess there are some good mamiya lenses, but my recent tests the rollei 90mm apo smoked the mamiya 120 macro.  The AF 80/2.8 Xenotar beat the new phase "schneider" 80.   Everyone needs to test for themselves, but I write with confidence as I have used and tested both systems recently.

[Anders_HK]

The AFI or Hy6 is a very fine addition and forward take on the MFD camera body, and it is astounding to me how fine it is to use. I suppose there are easier and more automated approaches, but the range of possible uses - from field to studio, from auto to total manual, continues to amaze.

As to the question "is it really dead?" , it depends on your viewpoint. If you are looking for active strong corporate presence, instant local repairs, and rentals - yes, its dead.

1) I never planned going Hy6 but holding one in hands, handling it and reading up on it convinced me. Also to realize the capabilities of the Hy6, the lenses and the great waist level finder.

2) Does Mamiya have instant repairs? Here in Hong Kong at least all needs to be sent to Japan, and then it is gone for six weeks or so. My AFD3 was in Japan two times the last year. With Rolleiflex I will actually have more support here in Hong Kong, since during fist year I will have a loaner for free if any repairs. I can also call up CEO at DHW for help.

3) Superior? Yes, it is a specialized tool. The Mamiya may be for more universal use (e.g. 28mm but which do not have the character that appears the Rollei lenses do) but is clunky, poor grip and which is made worse by that you need to lift the weight up to your full height. What I found was also that focus tolerances of Mamiya is not suffice well for manual focus at shallow depth of field, which is said to have bettered with the DF.

Remember that Rollie made the body, not Leaf -- Leaf just branded it.  And back when it was introduced was prior to Phase acquiring Leaf and about the same time Hassy and Phase were having issues. And at that time they (Rollie) would not allow Phase to build backs for the Hy6 body.  So it is unlikely that Phase will adopt the platform now to bail out Rollie.  Moreover, their Leaf division currently continues to support the Hy6 mount --- so if you want to use the Rollie system now, buy a Leaf back.  Phase is in the business of selling digital backs, so I suspect that if the Rollie demand gets large enough for it to be financially profitable for them, Phase would start building backs in the Hy6 mount.  

Re the Phase DF.  My guess -- and it's only a guess -- is the next iteration of the Phase One camera body will be a totally new design and likely become an immediate new standard for the industry.  From all appearances Phase has taken the existing body about as far as it can go technically, and the DF is old enough to be nearing a typical end of product cycle.  I'd also assume that any new body they release will use the Mamiya lens and body mounts simply because of the size of the installed user base for Phase M mount backs and lenses. Plus they made recent investments in bringing new M mount lens designs to the system and surely want to expand on those sales.  Again, these are only my assumptions and I offer them only FWIW fodder to those considering investing in an "almost dead" system --  

My humble .02 only,

Jack,

You may well find that you are wrong on this. Apparent from what I heard the DF2 will be a mere evolution of the DF, yet… truth will reveal once the DF2 is announced.

Personally I would not dare to bet on that it is impossible that something can be cooked up through Phase One or Leaf with DHW. I can well understand though if some involved in developing Hy6 could feel sour it did not take off as intended before. On other side of coin is that those involved at time achieved arguably the best camera for MFDB. Besides can one assume that there are still large stocks somewhere in Europe and perhaps even some in Isreal?

One may thus ask, why should a complete new camera be developed from scratch??? That kinda appear silly and wasteful...

The funny thing is about Phase One and that they have announced that they support an open platform and even have sued Hasselblad for closing theirs. What about Phase One backs being open to the Hy6?

Mind you though, for myself or anyone using Hy6 it would financially likely be better if Hy6 went down the drain, since then the prices of lenses would dip

Regards
Anders

[bradleygibson]

...snip...

As to the question "is it really dead?" , it depends on your viewpoint. If you are looking for active strong corporate presence, instant local repairs, and rentals - yes, its dead. On the other hand, dead systems rely on a few lonely outposts for service, and no home base.... and that's not the case here. What is true is that there is a smallish company making a living out of making and servicing this equipment. If you can deal with the smaller European manufacturing notion (no price lists posted, all communication is personal, but they take care of you), then it can work. Again, research is the key.

...snip...

+1.  Well put, Geoffrey!

[henrikfoto]

Does DHW have a homepage ?
I got a price from Hong Kong for a standard kit with 80 mm for 8200$.
Is that a good price or is it possible to get it lower?

Henrik

[amsp]

I can't believe we're discussing the DF2, a camera that doesn't exist and no clue when it'll exist. I also can't believe that when and if it does exist it's likely to "become an immediate new standard for the industry".

From pumpkin to Cinderella in one swoop?

Actually I think Jack might be spot on. PhaseOne is a clever company, they took their sweet time updating the screens on the digital backs, but once they did with the IQ series they did so with a bang, and now they are undoubtedly king of the hill. I bet they've been working on a similarly improved camera design since the first day they bought Mamiya, in the meantime they did what they could to improve the AFD. It's just natural that they'd want a camera platform that matches the IQ backs in quality and innovation, and they know it's a must if they want to to compete with Hasselblad in the long run. My prediction is that they will reveal the new camera later this year and start delivery around this time next year. This is pure speculation of course, but it would make sense business-wise and from a timing standpoint.

[ondebanks]

PhaseOne is a clever company, they took their sweet time updating the screens on the digital backs, but once they did with the IQ series they did so with a bang, and now they are undoubtedly king of the hill. I bet they've been working on a similarly improved camera design since the first day they bought Mamiya, in the meantime they did what they could to improve the AFD.

This is also how Mamiya themselves have developed their lines down the years. Each model starts with a bang of innovation which shocks and awes the market at first. To take just some examples from their diverse history: the RB67 in 1970, M645 in 1975, RZ67 in 1982, Mamiya 6 in 1989. Then each model goes through a progression of some minor tweaks and upgrades.

Sometimes they reach "the end of history" with a model, when either the market or the the platform itself restricts further meaningful improvement. So that model coasts along for years and decades (TLR series, Universal Press, RB67), perhaps to be replaced by something completely different, another shock and awe camera (e.g. Mamiya 6 which took over from both the TLRs and the Universal Press - maintaining the 6x6 format and interchangeable lenses of the former, and the rangefinder, interchangeable lenses, and true wideangles of the latter).

But when it's a more actively developed segment of the market, you can predict that when the latest upgrade seems late in coming and/or minor in scope, it just signals that what they've really been spending their time working on behind the scenes is a whole new take on the model. When the M645 Pro became the Pro TL (development-wise, this was a yawn...scarcely nothing changed...did it really take them 4 years ('93-'97) to achieve that?), I could tell that something big was in the works - and it was - the 645AF. The same signs are there now, so I hope that this pattern will be true of the 645DF's successor.

And it better have interchangeable VFs...

Ray

[JV]

I am not sure how innovative the M645 was when it came out but I do know that contrary to the RB67 and RZ67 it was not a good camera!  Of all the medium format cameras around Phase One probably picked the worst one to build upon.  To their defense it might have been their only option.  I hope to be surprised but blindly assuming that Phase One/Mamiya is going to release a camera that dwarfs Hasselblad and Leica and sets a new industry standard is a little bit too fanboy like for my taste.  Again, I wouldn't mind being pleasantly surprised...

[Ben Rubinstein]

Was speaking to Peartree, a Leaf dealer in London today, he was unequivical that the AFI is no longer being manufactured and what is still being sold is surviving stocks only. Going to be speaking to Yair Shachar (Leaf EU representative) on Sunday, we'll see what he says...

[Graham Mitchell]

Was speaking to Peartree, a Leaf dealer in London today, he was unequivical that the AFI is no longer being manufactured and what is still being sold is surviving stocks only. Going to be speaking to Yair Shachar (Leaf EU representative) on Sunday, we'll see what he says...

The camera isn't being made any longer with the AFi/Leaf branding, but the Hy6 branded version is still being made.

[EricWHiss]

Graham that's correct.
You can now see new Hy6 bodies being sold from a number of vendors with 2011 manufacturing dates.  One can of course buy a new Hy6 camera body and have it fit for use as the AFi was with the Leaf battery contacts in the grip. It will be the same but have Rolleiflex Hy6 printed on the body instead of Leaf AFi.    

Ben - It's Yair Shahar and while he may know about Leaf backs he's does not appear to be in regular contact with DHW.   In general, most dealers do not know much about what's happening over there because while Rollei/DHW has made great products they don't put much energy into marketing or PR - including the website.  They had a web page up with a picture of the Hy6 and 80mm apogen lens (a new and not announced lens) up earlier in the year, but I see its now taken down.

Henrik - you can order directly through DHW - contact Reiner Schoenrock
DHW Fototechnik GmbH

Salzdahlumer Str. 196         
38126 Braunschweig         
Telefon (0531) 68 00 100      
Telefax (0531) 68 00 295
eMail r.schoenrock@dhw-fototechnik.de

[jeanlucco]

Got two sets AFi+DB AFiII7 + various lenses. Ok, may be it is not the latest fashion gear but it does the work which is to give a nice tool to the photographer. The perfect camera that make perfect pictures for us is not yet on the market + will  be so boring.
Two months ago, got also experience with DHW for one problem with the mirror. Service was fast and you have the good feeling that you are still a client where the supplier is doing everything they can to help you.

[TechTalk]

PhaseOne is a clever company, they took their sweet time updating the screens on the digital backs, but once they did with the IQ series they did so with a bang, and now they are undoubtedly king of the hill. I bet they've been working on a similarly improved camera design since the first day they bought Mamiya, in the meantime they did what they could to improve the AFD.

Phase One did not buy Mamiya. They invested money in Mamiya and became a major shareholder, but did not buy the company or controlling interest. Mamiya remains a separate company that has a close strategic and financial relationship with Phase One.

[henrikfoto]

Have any of you heard about problems with the electrical signals in the AFI-camera? Or other technical problems?
Someone told me many users have problems with their AFI´s and that it´s more errors than with other brands.

What experiences do all you users have?

Henrik

[Doug Peterson]

Phase One initially invested in Mamiya as a minority owner. They now own a controlling interest in Mamiya.

Terminology in the public discussion thereof (press releases etc) by both companies has been shaped by the business culture of Japan regarding potentially negative views of foreign ownership of previously domestically controlled brands.

This at least is the situation as I understand it.

Doug Peterson (e-mail Me)
__________________

Head of Technical Services, Capture Integration
Phase One Partner of the Year
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[bcooter]

Time will tell.

Ever see those esquire articles,  "what happened to the future".

You know the flying cars, the jet pack, the meal in a pill, the wireless phone?

Ooops.  OK we got the phone but where's the rest?

 I kind of feel like that about digital cameras.

What happened to the future?

After over a decade of professional digital capture you'd think that at the highest most expensive level we'd have any iso cameras, with touch screen focus, image stabilized everything, multiple sensor or crop sizes and a way to beam the images anywhere we so desired.

I don't know, here it is in 2011 and at least I thought we'd have more than 4 1/2 players at the high end and I really would have thought cmos sensors of any size would be falling out of the trees.

I guess I'm optimistic, but I'd have thought that there would be more new cameras other than the Leica, which is another one of those cameras that kind of stumps me.  It's modern, sleek, but relies on old ccd tech and lenses on the tbd list.

Phase makes a splash, (a very expensive splash) with finally coming out with an lcd to match a $200 phone, (after 10 years of explaining to clients, models and stylists, uh, you need to see it on the computer)  though for some reason still can't produce in camera processing that will produce a preview without some issues.  

Even Canon and Nikon seem to have slowed the pace at the top end, but maybe that's Canon's fault with the 5d. They've lowered the price of entry, so  I guess who wants to spend 8 grand when you can get it for 2, or in the case of the leica who wants to spend $40,000, unless it's a hobby and you have the disposable income to buy pretty stuff.  I'd love to see the demographics of the typical S-2 owner.  I'd bet it's bentley, Palm Beach, three wall street brokers on speed dial and four country club memberships (you have to have two on both coasts).  

Maybe not, maybe it's the guy that just digs cameras and rather than buy a car he buys a leica.

Anyway, I surely didn't think we'd be talking about cameras based around old legacy film tech, but what the heck at this point I'd settle for the jet Pack because LA traffic is hell.


IMO

BC

[EricWHiss]

Have any of you heard about problems with the electrical signals in the AFI-camera? Or other technical problems?
Someone told me many users have problems with their AFI´s and that it´s more errors than with other brands.

What experiences do all you users have?

Henrik

I've heard that the tethering cable connection on the Leaf backs has had a lot of failures in the past.  One dealer told me it was very common for a while but thought maybe they had fixed it now.  That problem is not limited to the AFi backs though. 

[EricWHiss]

....heck at this point I'd settle for the jet Pack because LA traffic is hell.

       Yeah no kidding!   
 and what happpend to that personal moller aircar we've been hearing about for 30 yrs now?   

[BJNY]

I've heard that the tethering cable connection on the Leaf backs has had a lot of failures in the past.  One dealer told me it was very common for a while but thought maybe they had fixed it now.  That problem is not limited to the AFi backs though.  

I guess I've been lucky
since I've used Leaf Aptus 11, Aptus 22, Aptus 75, Aptus 75s, and AFi-10 extensively
and rarely had Firewire cable connection issues.

[henrikfoto]

I've heard that the tethering cable connection on the Leaf backs has had a lot of failures in the past.  One dealer told me it was very common for a while but thought maybe they had fixed it now.  That problem is not limited to the AFi backs though. 

I hope that is correct, but I am unsure..

I wonder how it can have been fixed if no new bodies have been made?
If the ones they sell now is still from the original production they most likely
all have the same weekness still...?

Henrik