Phase IQ180 fitting on the Phase DF camera

[scott morrish]

Okay... hoping this is not a really silly question!

I have a P65+ which fits nice and securely onto the back of the DF (as you'd expect).

However currently I am testing the IQ180, and on the same DF body (when locked on) if pressure is applied below the screen - the back moves closer to the camera body. In a set up where stray light, dust, humidity are all a very bad things, and where tolerances for positioning of the sensor are notoriously small - why the wiggle room?

Has anyone else seen this?
Is it supposed to move?
Am i worrying about nothing?

As always, thanks in advance...
Scott

[dchew]

When I was at PODAS I had a loose-fitting back similar to what you describe.  The technician fixed it by just bending the upper pins, which pushed the back a bit further into the bottom rail and eliminated the movement at the bottom. 

Not sure I would recommend that as a self-fix.  Probably best to call the dealer and see what they want you to do.

Dave

[scott morrish]

Well at least that suggests i am not alone in this... although I am definitely not doing that myself. I am sending it back tomorrow... so the dealers can enjoy the privilege of doing that!

If that does turn out to be the solution (and i realise that i don't know for sure yet), it would be kind-of-funny that despite the cost of these things - they might need some pins bent to get the sensor in the right place. When a shim of 1/100th of a mm can improve or degrade the resolution of captured images - what would a wobbly back say about manufacturing tolerances?

I have the back for the next 24hours - so if there are any other ideas about this- i'm keen to hear about them.
Thanks
Scott

[michael]

It's not bent pins.

It looks as if Phase may have changed the IQ back mounting tolerance to that of the Aptus backs, which is slightly different. Alpa, for this reason, has had two different plates, one for Phase and one for Aptus.

Several of us have seen this issue but I at least am not seeing any performance issues (yet). It's just a bit disconcerting to not have the back fit perfectly.

More on this as I hear anything new.

Michael

[scott morrish]

Thank you for the information. I have tested quite a few pieces of the Phase One jigsaw puzzle recently - and returned them dissatisfied. I was beginning to think that i was Jinxed or that my expectations were unreasonably high (- if that is possible at these prices)?

It is certainly disconcerting. Who'd have thought the latest Phase One back on the latest Phase One camera would wobble? Hardly what you'd expect at the cutting edge...

And it is not just a question of precision, which clearly matters a lot with these devices. I think it is also bizarre with regards to dust / humidity. I guess it might not matter for the studio bound photographer - but for any one in the great outdoors - who wants to see daylight between the body and the back? Dust - humidity - sea-spay... why?

If Alpa see the need for / wisdom of providing two plates - why don't Phase One? At face value you would think the two companies had a lot in common with regards to the quest for perfection, but in practice it seems as if there is quite a difference - at least in terms of capabilities with regards to precision engineering and quality control when it comes to manufacturing cameras. Back to my dealers...

Thanks,
Scott

[Doug Peterson]

Thank you for the information. I have tested quite a few pieces of the Phase One jigsaw puzzle recently - and returned them dissatisfied. I was beginning to think that i was Jinxed or that my expectations were unreasonably high (- if that is possible at these prices)?

It is certainly disconcerting. Who'd have thought the latest Phase One back on the latest Phase One camera would wobble? Hardly what you'd expect at the cutting edge...

And it is not just a question of precision, which clearly matters a lot with these devices. I think it is also bizarre with regards to dust / humidity. I guess it might not matter for the studio bound photographer - but for any one in the great outdoors - who wants to see daylight between the body and the back? Dust - humidity - sea-spay... why?

If Alpa see the need for / wisdom of providing two plates - why don't Phase One? At face value you would think the two companies had a lot in common with regards to the quest for perfection, but in practice it seems as if there is quite a difference - at least in terms of capabilities with regards to precision engineering and quality control when it comes to manufacturing cameras. Back to my dealers...

So far our (two) dealer unit IQs have fit all (four) of the DF bodies we've used them with as you'd expect/want.

It's possible your P65+ was on one side of the spec and that a lot of use of that back on the body has pushed the pins ever so slightly in that direction. Or you could just be the odd man out on the odds regardless of what those odds are overall.

No company (including Alpa - trust me from personal experience) can promise perfection (regardless of price or marketing). They can only promise that when something isn't right they will act quickly and easily to rectify it. Bottom line if you are at all unsatisfied with the fit, focus, or other attribute of your Phase body/IQ-back then Phase will gladly rectify the situation. I'm sure Phase and your dealer will have you happy in no time. If they don't please feel free to post here again to inform the community - though when they do I think it's fair that you would likewise come back and let the community know that.

Doug Peterson (e-mail Me)
__________________

Head of Technical Services, Capture Integration
Phase One Partner of the Year
Leaf, Leica, Cambo, Arca Swiss, Canon, Apple, Profoto, Broncolor, Eizo & More

National: 877.217.9870  |  Cell: 740.707.2183
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[scott morrish]

Totally agree that good service should be reported - and once my dealer has the IQ180 back in their hand i am sure an explanation will be forthcoming. I'll be sure let you know. I have had other issues with bits of Phase equipment - and my dealers have been very quick to help - so i am not running anyone down here - I am just trying to make sense of something that, to a Phase One customer, doesn't seem to make any sense.

Are you seriously trying to tell me that a the IQ180 is meant to wobble - and in fact the P65+ might have worn the pins down a tad to be nice and snug??
Thats really very funny / worrying.
And to talk of 'odds one way or the other' with regards to tolerances in this kind of equipment sounds a little bit like wriggling - to add to the IQ180's wobble.

Tolerances and precision either matter or they don't.
If they don't matter - no worries.
If they do matter - the IQ180 should not wobble.

Testing this gear ahead of purchasing takes a fair deal of time, and sometimes feels more like beta-testing: at these prices it shouldn't.
If these issues are known - all the dealers should know, and prospective buyers should be informed before people like me have to start wondering what on earth is going on.

To date - each time i've hit problems - people have tended to assume i was wrong - and insisted that everyone else is very happy with the same gear. In actual fact each time there were issues - but the dealers weren't always aware of them. That's why these questions appear on LL - so photographers (customers) can share good news, compare results, and try to find solutions to problems. It is all just as valid as a sales pitch...
Scott

[Steve Hendrix]

Totally agree that good service should be reported - and once my dealer has the IQ180 back in their hand i am sure an explanation will be forthcoming. I'll be sure let you know. I have had other issues with bits of Phase equipment - and my dealers have been very quick to help - so i am not running anyone down here - I am just trying to make sense of something that, to a Phase One customer, doesn't seem to make any sense.

Are you seriously trying to tell me that a the IQ180 is meant to wobble - and in fact the P65+ might have worn the pins down a tad to be nice and snug??
Thats really very funny / worrying.
And to talk of 'odds one way or the other' with regards to tolerances in this kind of equipment sounds a little bit like wriggling - to add to the IQ180's wobble.

Tolerances and precision either matter or they don't.
If they don't matter - no worries.
If they do matter - the IQ180 should not wobble.

Testing this gear ahead of purchasing takes a fair deal of time, and sometimes feels more like beta-testing: at these prices it shouldn't.
If these issues are known - all the dealers should know, and prospective buyers should be informed before people like me have to start wondering what on earth is going on.

To date - each time i've hit problems - people have tended to assume i was wrong - and insisted that everyone else is very happy with the same gear. In actual fact each time there were issues - but the dealers weren't always aware of them. That's why these questions appear on LL - so photographers (customers) can share good news, compare results, and try to find solutions to problems. It is all just as valid as a sales pitch...
Scott

I don't see anyone on this thread - sales pitchers or image tossers - questioning the validity of your issue.

And you're absolutely right Scott, any technical issue can be unknown to a) end users  b) dealers  c) the manufacturer themselves. It is often that issues are only discovered once the product is out of the relatively controlled pre-production environment and instead, into the wild and wooly hands of photographers and all manner and combination of computers/cameras/lenses/situations.

A dealer should never discount an end user issue. Sometimes it can come across that way if a dealer has not encountered the problem before and you're made to feel you've just made up a story for everyone's amusement. But every issue should be investigated until resolution. I can tell you from experience that technical support personnel often (like doctors) are necessarily in the mode of trying to identify the problem and match it to a known solution. This is a good thing in that the process usually provides the most expedient fix for the end user. However, the problem should always be treated as legitimate unless resolved or proven it does not exist.

That is why we encourage any of our users to let us know even the smallest little issue because unless it is documented, aside from our own testing and use, that is how we will find out about it. Information sharing is good. That said, on a public forum, often non-systematic issues can take on larger than life significance. While this is a very active forum, it only constitutes a small percentage of active users. Not saying a public forum isn't a good place to make others aware of an issue or to alert others to your issue, but it is helpful to have an accurate perspective on the scale of the issue.


Steve Hendrix

 

[scott morrish]

Doug / Steve,

Appreciate your replies - its nothing personal. You just happen to sell / represent one of the Brands i happen to use - and to be honest - Doug's response just made me laugh.

Why resort to a public forum? I wanted to know if this was a unique problem or not, before i return it tomorrow: my dealer didn't know. Thought i ought to know if it was a good wobble or a bad wobble before i reached for my credit card.

As far as the wider picture is concerned - 3 out of 5 IQ180 discussed in this thread have wobbled. Wether the wobble is a problem or not remains to be seen?

Good news to bring balance to this thread: the screen is lovely!

Regards,
Scott

[Christopher]

While I have troubles with my back, which hopefully will be resolved soon. I have to say that my IQ180 fits perfectly on the Phase One DF and AF. No wobbling at all.

[Guy Mancuso]

So far our (two) dealer unit IQs have fit all (four) of the DF bodies we've used them with as you'd expect/want.

It's possible your P65+ was on one side of the spec and that a lot of use of that back on the body has pushed the pins ever so slightly in that direction. Or you could just be the odd man out on the odds regardless of what those odds are overall.

No company (including Alpa - trust me from personal experience) can promise perfection (regardless of price or marketing). They can only promise that when something isn't right they will act quickly and easily to rectify it. Bottom line if you are at all unsatisfied with the fit, focus, or other attribute of your Phase body/IQ-back then Phase will gladly rectify the situation. I'm sure Phase and your dealer will have you happy in no time. If they don't please feel free to post here again to inform the community - though when they do I think it's fair that you would likewise come back and let the community know that.

Doug Peterson (e-mail Me)
__________________

Head of Technical Services, Capture Integration
Phase One Partner of the Year
Leaf, Leica, Cambo, Arca Swiss, Canon, Apple, Profoto, Broncolor, Eizo & More

National: 877.217.9870  |  Cell: 740.707.2183
Newsletter | RSS Feed
Buy Capture One 6 at 10% off

It also fit on my DF with no issues when I tested it 2 weeks ago. It seemed nice and snug actually better than my P40+

But like anything else shit happens.

[dchew]

Just to be clear, it was not an IQ180 that was loose in my experience it was a P65 (I ordered later so don't have my 180 yet. It fit fine on the Phase DF, but was loose on my Alpa. Eventually we swapped backs and the second back worked much better, although still a bit loose. I'm more inclined to blame my situation on Alpa than Phase.

Sorry for the confusion.

Dave

As far as the wider picture is concerned - 3 out of 5 IQ180 discussed in this thread have wobbled. Wether the wobble is a problem or not remains to be seen?

Good news to bring balance to this thread: the screen is lovely!

Regards,
Scott

[Doug Peterson]

Are you seriously trying to tell me that a the IQ180 is meant to wobble - and in fact the P65+ might have worn the pins down a tad to be nice and snug??

Glad my attempt to help was met with your laughter...

"So far our (two) dealer unit IQs have fit all (four) of the DF bodies we've used them with as you'd expect/want."

That's what I said. Maybe you misread it but I'm not saying that the IQ180 is meant to wobble. In fact I'm saying that we've had two IQs so far and four bodies that I've seen them on and don't recall anything but a snug fit "as you'd expect or want".

And suggesting that mechanical wear from using your 65+ on this body may have moved/bent the prongs by a fraction of a mm is hardly crazy. Generally speaking if a back is not mounting onto a body snuggly I generally look at the body first and the back second.

Doug Peterson (e-mail Me)
__________________

Head of Technical Services, Capture Integration
Phase One Partner of the Year
Leaf, Leica, Cambo, Arca Swiss, Canon, Apple, Profoto, Broncolor, Eizo & More

National: 877.217.9870  |  Cell: 740.707.2183
Newsletter | RSS Feed
Buy Capture One 6 at 10% off

[Steve Hendrix]

Doug / Steve,

Appreciate your replies - its nothing personal. You just happen to sell / represent one of the Brands i happen to use - and to be honest - Doug's response just made me laugh.

Why resort to a public forum? I wanted to know if this was a unique problem or not, before i return it tomorrow: my dealer didn't know. Thought i ought to know if it was a good wobble or a bad wobble before i reached for my credit card.

As far as the wider picture is concerned - 3 out of 5 IQ180 discussed in this thread have wobbled. Wether the wobble is a problem or not remains to be seen?

Good news to bring balance to this thread: the screen is lovely!

Regards,
Scott

Now worries Scott. I don't know why Doug's response was funny. He responded with what we've seen with the the units we've received so far. And quite real world frankly, that these are machined products that are never 100% exactly perfect. Pretty close, but not 100%. And I feel that instead of sales pitching it as they are 100% perfect, he's being honest. No slight on Doug, IMO, just an acknowledgement of a manufacturing process.

And I'm saying a public forum is fine, but perspective can be skewed. No reason not to post it. But already, you've said that 3 of 5 are wobbly. I count 1. The PODAS back probably had a bent pin to begin with, which doesn't mean that it's a wobble, and Dave said it wasn't even on the DF camera, it was on the Alpa. John's Aptus 22 unit wobbled, but it wasn't an IQ. I've personally felt digital back wobble with many digital backs and camera combinations, Mamiya cameras, Hasselblad H cameras, even Hasselblad H3D/H4D cameras. It's not uncommon, and it is not always an issue.

But it certainly would make me wonder if the unit I bought had a wobble, and it certainly should be checked out. In addition to our 2 demo units, I checked 2 end user units that we received and they're solid tight, if anything, almost too tight (but that's sort of a good thing, I think). But by all means, investigate your wobble, and as Doug said, I'm sure your dealer and Phase One will rectify any wobble that needs unwobbling.



Steve Hendrix

[scott morrish]

Glad my attempt to help was met with your laughter...

"So far our (two) dealer unit IQs have fit all (four) of the DF bodies we've used them with as you'd expect/want."

That's what I said. Maybe you misread it but I'm not saying that the IQ180 is meant to wobble. In fact I'm saying that we've had two IQs so far and four bodies that I've seen them on and don't recall anything but a snug fit "as you'd expect or want".

And suggesting that mechanical wear from using your 65+ on this body may have moved/bent the prongs by a fraction of a mm is hardly crazy. Generally speaking if a back is not mounting onto a body snuggly I generally look at the body first and the back second.

Doug Peterson

Doug,

I do appreciate your input to this thread and of course the forum generally. Still, I am not sure if i misread anything, and the laughter was not meant rudely.

Beyond the idea that the P65+ wore the pins down to fit really nicely, the line that followed about being the "odd man out on the odds regardless of what those odds are overall" simply reminded me of the Rumsfeld quote about "...known knowns, known unknowns, the things that we know we don't know, unknown unknowns and... the things we don't know we don't know." ... which simply amused me!

And as for the idea that the fault is with the body, rather than the back, seeing that is the Phase One DF - onto which the Phase One P65+ fitted quite nicely (even with newish pins) - it still raises questions about Quality Control. If its not the back - its the body: both are Phase One.

scott

[scott morrish]

And I'm saying a public forum is fine, but perspective can be skewed. No reason not to post it. But already, you've said that 3 of 5 are wobbly. I count 1. The PODAS back probably had a bent pin to begin with, which doesn't mean that it's a wobble, and Dave said it wasn't even on the DF camera, it was on the Alpa. John's Aptus 22 unit wobbled, but it wasn't an IQ. I've personally felt digital back wobble with many digital backs and camera combinations, Mamiya cameras, Hasselblad H cameras, even Hasselblad H3D/H4D cameras. It's not uncommon, and it is not always an issue.

Steve Hendrix

Steve,

If you read this thread closely... it is true that i counted 3 out of 5 IQ180s that wobbled. Subsequently that has been clarified by Dave - so i'd now say 2 out of the 4 IQ180's discussed up until that point wobbled, but either way, the fifth was a P65! And now others are saying they have backs that fit correctly - thats all fine, open and honest. I don't intend to keep a tally.

Before assuming that what i am saying is skewed, it is worth remembering that Michael also reported several others that had 'noted' this issue. He also adds that he is not aware of it being a problem - just disconcerting. If it turns out to be nothing more than disconcerting - all is well.

I look closely before buying because i need to be sure it is worth the considerable investment - but when time is short and something wobbles - when common sense tells you it shouldn't - this forum is a great place to find answers pretty quickly. It is a good place to learn, sell, and solve problems - its just we are all participate with different interests.

Regards,
scott

[gdh]

My IQ180 fits tight and snug--no wiggle on my Phase One DF;

The Alpa plate fits snug on the IQ but not as close as on the Phase one or as close as the P65+, but NO wiggle room nor can I detect any light entering around the perimeter. I just spent a lot of time doing my infinity focus on the Alpa adapter yesterday and was closely checking each image.  I read above that Alpa has a separate Leaf and Phase back--I'm going to check to see which I have.

As pointed out, this can happen to any manufacturer--I had 2 H1 and an H2 with my Leaf back and there seemed to be wiggle room that did not exist with the Alpa H adapter, so I assumed it an Hasselblad issue, but it didn't seem to cause any problems so never pursued it.

[gdh]

Just learned that on the Alpa Adapter back side, a "00" indicates Phase One adapter and "000" indicates Leaf adapter.

[scott morrish]

News about the wobbly IQ180 - in the words of my dealer: "The gap is too big.  There is a shim on the plate that is adjusted at the factory. Needs to be checked.  Not a big problem".
So in the end - i am sure it will be fine. But in the meantime, I have had time to mull this over, rationally i'd like to think.

There is no way on earth i'd expect or accept that a device at this price, that is purportedly a state-of-the-art precision tool, should let daylight spill between the body and the back, let alone wobble under pressure. To be clear, light is not spilling onto the sensor, but it is obviously visible between the body and the back. Light and precision aside (which is an odd concept with these divides) - there is still humidity and dust... at least there is in my world?

I choose to buy Phase One - so before anyone jumps all over the idea that i am skewing (or am even able to skew) the perception of Phase One - please accept that far from wanting to run anyone down - i only have a very simple agenda: to get the very best out of a system that purports to be 'what the worlds best photography is made of'. I know enough to know how marketing works - but if you put yourself on a pedestal… you probably don't want to wobble.

Scott

[wolfbellw.]

hm, after investing quite a few grand for that wonderful hightech toy i would just spend another dollar for some black tape.
that fixes the wobbling problem, makes everything nicely weatherproof and gives a somehow personal flavor that also will help to keep the thugs away.