Is Kodak out of the sensor design business ?

[jduncan]

I was reading "Phase One IQ180 in The Field" article and this comment  capture my eye:

"Will anyone else have an 80MP or larger sensor soon? One can't say for sure, but Kodak has opted out of the next generation MF sensor game, and this sensor design was co-developed between Phase and Dalsa, so don't expect to see it turning up anywhere else."

Enfasis is mine.

This appear to imply that Hasselblad, Leica and Pentax are in a practical dead end, at last until the market has a new entrant.

I was aware of this:
http://image-sensors-world.blogspot.com/2011/04/omnivision-acquires-850-kodak-patents.html

But it seem to be more about CMOS sensors.

It will be a funny time for them to go out as  with the Pentax there appears to be a big market unraveling for medium  format, or so, sensors. Maybe is not big enough to cover the expenses.
 Dalsa do have the advantage of habbing the support of the Canadian government and since January Teledyne.

Maybe I am reading to much into a casual statement but I know Michael have deep inside into the state of the digital medium format universe.


Best regards,
James.



 

[Graham Mitchell]

This appear to imply that Hasselblad, Leica and Pentax are in a practical dead end, at last until the market has a new entrant.

Even if Kodak stopped production, why do you assume other brands won't be able to use Dalsa sensors? Some back makers have already used sensors from both. This specific 80MP sensor might be available only to Phase/Leaf, or perhaps for a limited time, but nothing is stopping Dalsa from producing other sensors to meet demand.

[jduncan]

Even if Kodak stopped production, why do you assume other brands won't be able to use Dalsa sensors? Some back makers have already used sensors from both. This specific 80MP sensor might be available only to Phase/Leaf, or perhaps for a limited time, but nothing is stopping Dalsa from producing other sensors to meet demand.

To clarify:
1. I don't believe the article says they  stop production, but development of next generation sensors. I am not sure if this interpretation of mine is accurate.  Does someone has an inside?

2. Each new sensor Dalsa has develop in the past two generations have been linked to Phase One. Eventually in the case of the 60mpixels sensor, it went to the H4D-60 too.  Michael appears to imply that this time that not be the case.

As you said Dalsa could have two big sensor design teams  and create a chip for the rest of the market (meaning Hasselblad  and Sinar?). If so It will be interesting to see how they handle IP issues.

Thanks for taking the time to reply.

James

[Doug Peterson]

Even if Kodak stopped production, why do you assume other brands won't be able to use Dalsa sensors? Some back makers have already used sensors from both. This specific 80MP sensor might be available only to Phase/Leaf, or perhaps for a limited time, but nothing is stopping Dalsa from producing other sensors to meet demand.

I think it would be easy to understate the amount of work that goes into catering a camera to a specific sensor and how hard it is to adapt to a new manufacturer. It's not like switching from Seagate to Western Digital hard drives. It's not "plug and play".

Phase was able to do it with relative speed and good results because their R+D department had already been building around Dalsa sensors as a safe-guard (similar to Apple building Intel-compatible versions of their OS long before they decided they had to switch from Power PC) and because they had engineers already familiar with Dalsa designs. Leaf of course has a very long history of Dalsa designs. Hasselblad took longer to make that transition (H4D-60), and others (Leica/Pentax) may also have difficulties, in making a transitions to Dalsa IF that is what is coming (I have no more info on the future of Kodak sensors than public record, and this thread seems, to me, to be much more speculation than anything meaningful). I have zero doubt those companies are more than capable of doing so - but how quickly and how much it takes away from other areas of development would be open questions.

I would be (personally) saddened if Kodak got out of the business of developing new sensor designs. Competition (vs. Dalsa) is good for everyone.

Doug Peterson (e-mail Me)
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[Radu Arama]

A sad reminder of the truth in Doug's words is the Sigma SD1 debacle and the cost associated with developing a new (but very small in area) sensor compared with MF sizes.

Radu

I think it would be easy to understate the amount of work that goes into catering a camera to a specific sensor and how hard it is to adapt to a new manufacturer. It's not like switching from Seagate to Western Digital hard drives. It's not "plug and play".


Doug Peterson (e-mail Me)
__________________

Head of Technical Services, Capture Integration
Phase One Partner of the Year
Leaf, Leica, Cambo, Arca Swiss, Canon, Apple, Profoto, Broncolor, Eizo & More

National: 877.217.9870  |  Cell: 740.707.2183
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[Anders_HK]

"Will anyone else have an 80MP or larger sensor soon? One can't say for sure, but Kodak has opted out of the next generation MF sensor game, and this sensor design was co-developed between Phase and Dalsa, so don't expect to see it turning up anywhere else."

Ok, so Kodak do not have it now... Who knows what they might be up to? So, they supply to Hasselblad, Leica and Pentax... perhaps they not wanted 80MP (yet)?? So...?

(Above said I still stick to Leaf  )

[michael]

I don't know have much more information than I hinted at in the review.

According to those in the know, Kodak does not seem interested in the development of new MF sensors. This may have to do with Kodak overall being in deep doo doo financially and the sensor division subsequently assuming a defensive posture.

I know that folks in Rochester read this site, and if anyone there would like to shed some light on the matter it would be more than welcome.

Michael

[EricWHiss]

It would be too bad were it true.  IMHO Kodak produced some of the best sensors.

[Christoph C. Feldhaim]

Once the competion is out of a business bad things are going to happen ...

[Josef Isayo]

I love the skin tones out of my H4D 40 which uses a Kodak sensor. I certainly prefer it to my Canon 5D II files.

[eronald]

A sad reminder of the truth in Doug's words is the Sigma SD1 debacle and the cost associated with developing a new (but very small in area) sensor compared with MF sizes.

Radu

I don't think the Sigma is a debacle. Sigma have the problem of establishing themselves as a camera maker without aggravating Canon or Nikon, and a good way is to develop the Foveon IP and then license it out themselves.

Edmund

[Hassyman]

I personally can put a bet on that Hasselblad and the rest of the MF camera makers are not in a dead end just because they have not ordered the Dalsa 80MP sensor. I am not 100% convinced that more megapixels is what we need. I would prefer more dynamic range and higher ISO instead of more megapixels. There is a limitation how much information you can get out of a limited surface. I think we are pretty close to that limit. Just check the 35mm cameras. A 25MP is not adding any more resolution than a 16 MP. The optics make the limitation. It must be the same with MF. For more resolution you simply need a larger sensor. Same logics as with film.

[Cineski]

I agree with Hassyman.  I don't shoot MF digital but MF film.  I do shoot Canon digital and it's honestly annoying how the MP race is so alive and well.  I'd much rather have 16mp in 35 format that are high quality pixels.  Not the crap you get with the current 5D2.  Quality over quantity.

[cng]

Well ... Canon debuted 300mm and 120MP CMOS sensors at Canon Expo recently.  Digital 10x8 anyone?  (300mm ~ 12")

Also, the 120MP CMOS sensor seems to confirm the long-discussed potential direction for future MFDB's:  i.e. increased resolution with video capabilities and truly useable LiveView.

http://www.pdnonline.com/pdn/static/Five-Emerging-Techno-2726.shtml  (scroll down to #4)

[Radu Arama]

I don't think the Sigma is a debacle. Sigma have the problem of establishing themselves as a camera maker without aggravating Canon or Nikon, and a good way is to develop the Foveon IP and then license it out themselves.

Edmund

When I said "debacle" I meant specifically the announced 10K price vs. the many times hinted Canon 7D like price. As the second part of your assertion Sigma is the only third party lens maker that doesn't pay royalties but reverse engineers the mounts hence Canon and Nikon have much stronger reasons to be aggravated than a new camera. 

Radu

[LKaven]

I agree with Hassyman.  I don't shoot MF digital but MF film.  I do shoot Canon digital and it's honestly annoying how the MP race is so alive and well.  I'd much rather have 16mp in 35 format that are high quality pixels.  Not the crap you get with the current 5D2.  Quality over quantity.

You can have high quality in a small pixel model.  The 5DII is not a good standard to judge from.  The Canon sensor is severely limited by read noise, unlike the new generation Sony CMOS (as in D7000/K-5).  The clean read electronics of the Sony designs have negligible read noise and give a strong advantage to high pixel-counts in this generation.  A good CMOS sensor in medium format would be something to see.

[Hassyman]

Yes, and hopefully a lot cheaper. I would like to see more effort spent on making MF more affordable than these extreme high end backs who hardly anyone can afford. At least very few photographers.

[Cineski]

I'm not so sure about this.  A big reason MF digital has gotten so big is because they've come down in price.  If that starts to reverse they'll be doing the market and themselves quite a big disservice.

Once the competion is out of a business bad things are going to happen ...

[Radu Arama]

Pentax without any doubt will have soon (like 2012 soon) a CMOS MF camera with a Japanese sensor. The question in my mind is whether they will also use a Kodak sensor (maybe even the current or a slightly modified 40Mp) in an even less expensive than 645D camera or go for two sizes of the same pixel pitch CMOS sensor? With one or two new cameras plus a total of three new lenses built for digital and a lot of older FA 645 in production the 2012 will be an interesting year to witness.

Radu 

[Doug Peterson]

Pentax without any doubt will have soon (like 2012 soon) a CMOS MF camera with a Japanese sensor. The question in my mind is whether they will also use a Kodak sensor (maybe even the current or a slightly modified 40Mp) in an even less expensive than 645D camera or go for two sizes of the same pixel pitch CMOS sensor? With one or two new cameras plus a total of three new lenses built for digital and a lot of older FA 645 in production the 2012 will be an interesting year to witness.

I love comments about the future which include the phrase "without any doubt".

Especially about when you remember the 645D was "unveiled" at PIE2005 and shipped in late 2010.

My industry read (an informed guess and not much more) is that CMOS medium format is still more than 2 years from being in people's hands. Unless you have specific knowledge you want to share...

Doug Peterson (e-mail Me)
__________________

Head of Technical Services, Capture Integration
Phase One Partner of the Year
Leaf, Leica, Cambo, Arca Swiss, Canon, Apple, Profoto, Broncolor, Eizo & More

National: 877.217.9870  |  Cell: 740.707.2183
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