At last!

[uaiomex]

I just read Sean Reid's article Driving your Camera. The finger is on the wound, bravo!. Comparing cameras to cars is so efficient there's no problem with me. Cliché? No way! Is breathing a cliché?
I have posted many times before in different forums about the lack of feel, logic and tactful controls in modern cameras. Modern cameras are obtrusive. They demand a big amount of concentration on finding the right control at a given mode that it is not fun anymore.  They become amusing few seconds after we open the box and end being fun one hour later (maybe that's why we see now so many "Open box" videos in YouTube). All this automation has turned to be a nuisance more than a convenience. Not always but too much often. Reid mentions some instances of "malhardware". There are many more everywhere you look.

Common photographers and reviewers often criticize all the terribly applied software trying to over ride buttons, levers and switches without success but forget to mention all the basic design flaws of the equipment.
Of all these flaws, the worst offender has been the camera changing controls depending in which mode you are. ¡My aperture wheel is now moving my shutter speed instead! How'd that happen?
Imagine that your car's brake pedal becomes the accelerator pedal when you go from economy to sport mode! -It's the same thing!!!
I've been shooting mostly with EOS cameras for the last 20 years. Up to this date, often I get lost or confused for a few moments between the 2 wheels controlling aperture and shutter speed.
Pentax heard me   Too bad Canon haven't.
Eduardo

[Rob C]

There are those erudite souls amongst us who will tell you that's improvement, the opening of new opportunities for the common man, talking away the unfair advantages of the pro who understood the terribly complicated mechanics of load, meter, focus and shoot.

Yep, a new democratic movement... once you had to be somewhat visually literate; now you only need to be that and also have a degree in software design.

How things improve without getting any better!

I'm with your sentiment 100%.

Rob C

[stamper]

Quote

I've been shooting mostly with EOS cameras for the last 20 years. Up to this date, often I get lost or confused for a few moments between the 2 wheels controlling aperture and shutter speed.

Unquote

It looks as if the problem is actually yourself and not the equipment? A camera manufacturer doesn't make cameras for individuals but for hundreds of thousands of individuals. The vast majority of advanced photographers want more control over the camera and not less. Have you thought about a good point & shoot if you find the more advanced cameras a bit daunting? 

[stamper]

I have read Sean's article since my last post. I am not sure about the analogy with cars. For instance I don't use my feet when using my camera so any reference between the accelerator and the clutch is pointless. To be honest any comparison is pointless between cars and cameras. I think he done it to make is article more "interesting". The bottom line is that you can't please all of the people all of the time regarding the controls on the camera. He states that he regularly tells the manufacturers about his ideas. How many other people are doing the same thing and how do the manufacturers please all of them? The liking of the layout of a camera is a personal thing. There are some left handers who moan that the controls should be reversed and there are some who want the viewfinder on the other side. Either you live with the layout or try and test many of them to see what suits you.

[Jeremy Roussak]

The liking of the layout of a camera is a personal thing. There are some left handers who moan that the controls should be reversed and there are some who want the viewfinder on the other side.

There are those of us who think that the photo of the car interior shows some very serious design flaws. The steering wheel's on the wrong side!

Jeremy

[Rob C]

Quote

I've been shooting mostly with EOS cameras for the last 20 years. Up to this date, often I get lost or confused for a few moments between the 2 wheels controlling aperture and shutter speed.

Unquote

It looks as if the problem is actually yourself and not the equipment? A camera manufacturer doesn't make cameras for individuals but for hundreds of thousands of individuals. The vast majority of advanced photographers want more control over the camera and not less. Have you thought about a good point & shoot if you find the more advanced cameras a bit daunting? 

I think you missed the point: total control of a camera used to be simplicity itself. The problem, which I believe it now is, is that photography itself has been made complicated thanks to digital and the makers' wishes to add features and make longer lists of assumed must-haves.

If anything, total control today, with digital, is achieved for me by disabling as much of the stuff as I possibly can. I hate cameras to attempt to think for me, other than when I feel obliged to use auto ISO which I agree is a great additional tool to have. Fortunately, on our camera, it's a function that you set and can then forget. I really would hate to lose that now for those high-speed, changing light things that music presents.

Rob C

[uaiomex]

I didn't say I wanted less control. I said I wanted better manual control features in digital modern cameras, meaning more intuitive, more tactful and less prone to mistakes. To err is human. Murphy never sleeps. Perhaps you enjoy perfect coordination between brain, eyes and ten fingers, linear and non-linear and at all times, even if you are wasted, sleepy or hangover. Even perhaps you belong to that secret ancient society in which all members are direct descendants of Zeus.  
I hope I don't burn for eternity for my earthly human arrogance  for daring to think that camera manufacturers should design solely for me!
Humbly yours
Eduardo


 

Quote

I've been shooting mostly with EOS cameras for the last 20 years. Up to this date, often I get lost or confused for a few moments between the 2 wheels controlling aperture and shutter speed.

Unquote

It looks as if the problem is actually yourself and not the equipment? A camera manufacturer doesn't make cameras for individuals but for hundreds of thousands of individuals. The vast majority of advanced photographers want more control over the camera and not less. Have you thought about a good point & shoot if you find the more advanced cameras a bit daunting?  

[stamper]

Quote

I didn't say I wanted less control. I said I wanted better manual control features in digital modern cameras, meaning more intuitive, more tactful and less prone to mistakes. To err is human. Murphy never sleeps. Perhaps you enjoy perfect coordination between brain, eyes and ten fingers, linear and non-linear and at all times, even if you are wasted, sleepy or hangover. Even perhaps you belong to that secret ancient society in which all members are direct descendants of Zeus.  Wink
I hope I don't burn for eternity for my earthly human arrogance  for daring to think that camera manufacturers should design solely for me!
Humbly yours
Eduardo

Unquote

I didn't see anything in your post about wanting better manual control features. I too struggle with the controls at times but I don't blame the camera. In an advanced DSLR there isn't - imo - a need for scene modes.

Quote

I hope I don't burn for eternity for my earthly human arrogance  for daring to think that camera manufacturers should design solely for me!

Unquote

If they aren't going to design solely for you then there isn't much point to your post?
There are millions of cameras sold every year and they can't satisfy everyone with the layout even though some of the controls can be customized. I am not trying to denigrate you personally but I scratch my head when I read this kind of post.

[stamper]

Quote

I think you missed the point: total control of a camera used to be simplicity itself. The problem, which I believe it now is, is that photography itself has been made complicated thanks to digital and the makers' wishes to add features and make longer lists of assumed must-haves.

Unquote

Rob the vast majority of photographers don't want total control over the camera. Some use good quality cameras as point and shoots and never use manual controls. I know a photographer who boasts about over 40 years in photography and using his DSLR in auto mode all of the time. You have been using a camera for decades and you know what you are doing. Some never read the manual or a photography book and are happy for the camera to do the work. The bottom line is that the manufacturers are in business to make a profit and packing in scene modes helps the profit margin.

[uaiomex]

I don't understand what is it that you don't understand. My post is very simple: I'm glad that someone like Reid talked about the issue cause I'm one that would like these things to improve here. Then I tell my experience. My whole point is: I share Reid's point of view and I want to contribute to it. I expected some to disagree with either or with both of course.
You specifically stated "A camera manufacturer doesn't make cameras for individuals but for hundreds of thousands of individuals".  Now you say: If they aren't going to design solely for you then there isn't much point to your post?
So, what is going to be?
You asked if I was the problem and not the equipment. So, what are you implying, that it is ok for Sean to write a critic on camera design but not for me? And other things.
Why did you suggest me to go for a P&S? Obviously, we are not talking about snap cameras or which is the easiest camera to operate. We are talking about serious cameras for serious photography. Telling someone to consider instead a p&s when discussing control design on cameras is not polite. Thank you very much.
 
Eduardo

 

If they aren't going to design solely for you then there isn't much point to your post?
There are millions of cameras sold every year and they can't satisfy everyone with the layout even though some of the controls can be customized. I am not trying to denigrate you personally but I scratch my head when I read this kind of post.
[/quote]

[stamper]

Eduardo the bottom line is that they aren't in the least interested in what you and Sean state. They design a camera that suits their ideas and financial implications. You say that you have been using EOS cameras for twenty years and you are by your admission struggling to use them. This is why I suggested a point and shoot camera. Countless photographers use the EOS cameras without complaint so where does the problem lie?

Quote

Common photographers and reviewers often criticize all the terribly applied software trying to over ride buttons, levers and switches without success but forget to mention all the basic design flaws of the equipment.

Unquote

If you find the equipment to be bad as you state then a change of brand is what you should be seeking. Sean is trying to direct photographers to his paid site by this type of - imo - OTT article. Have you any technical background in designing cameras? If you did design one in collaboration with others how would you feel if someone stated the criticism that you used in the quote? As stated they can't produce cameras to suit individuals.

[hjulenissen]

I think that new advances in camera control will appear in some iPhone-ish app, not in a dedicated camera. Just because grown-up photographers are so accustomed to a user interface that was a necessity in the analog age.

Exposure is conceptually simple. Auto-exposure with aperture, shutter-time or iso priority is just a variation. I am sure that some clever person could device a way to control exposure/auto-exposure that:
1. Did not hide what will actually happen
2. Presented the priority/auto modes in a natural fashion
3. Had consistent user interaction in all modes
4. Would be fast for the professionals, instructive for the newbies

I dont know if this should be presented as a number of fixed-function wheels, a touch-screen, 2-d joysticks or whatever.

-h

[uaiomex]

Of course we all know they are in the business of making money, but not just that. They are in the business of making money by designing and building cameras, and as far as I know, there's no better place on earth to ventilate our frustrations, wish-lists and ideas on how to improve gear than on the internet. And who knows. miracles happen, not just shit.

On staying with Canon, I have to say that I like EOS bodies a lot but I wished for years that they would have provided a mean for optionally locking the wheels' operations.
Moving to Pentax is out of the question. Doing so would make me lose a lot of the benefits of the EOS system plus I'm kind of heavily invested in glass. I could not (dont want to) live without my TS lenses.

Well, Pentax has done it and I don't think they did it for me. I'd say they did it because the necessity existed. They are filling up a hole. Maybe they found it themselves or perhaps they found out through market research.
Eduardo

Eduardo the bottom line is that they aren't in the least interested in what you and Sean state. They design a camera that suits their ideas and financial implications.

[AlfSollund]

Modern cameras are designed like iShit, mediocre solutions in flashy packages for dumb people. For some products I belong to the "dumb people" group, for photo by system cameras I take the elitism stance and claim to have some  knowledge that makes this kind of design counter-productive and limiting the creativity.

[Rob C]

You know, I would really have liked it if Nikon had come out with a Leica M competitor; with those wonderful low-light sensors, they'd be winning the battle. A camera with great ff sensor and without a host of frills would do very nicely indeed. They wouldn't even have to develop a huge range of optics: the competition doesn't seem to need them, and for myself, 35mm, 50mm and 90mm would cover anything I can really imagine doing with a non-reflex.

But then, they'd blow it all by chasing M9 prices, I suppose. Do you ever feel you reach the stage of exactly where you came in?

Rob C

[stamper]

The cameras they make aren't as bad as iShit. At the end of the day you have to learn to work with whatever tools are available and not for what you wish for. Unfortunately we don't  - mostly - know the credentials of the critics who pan modern cameras. This dreaded wish list can be corrosive to the people who invent them. No matter what the manufacturers do it isn't good enough. If someone doesn't like modern cameras then go into a second hand camera store and buy a yesteryear manual camera and learn - once again - how to use it. There are plenty of them because they have been abandoned as being obsolete. The choice is still there.

[telyt]

.... If someone doesn't like modern cameras then go into a second hand camera store and buy a yesteryear manual camera and learn - once again - how to use it. There are plenty of them because they have been abandoned as being obsolete. The choice is still there.

Few yesteryear cameras will produce today's image quality.  There no technical reason a camera needs to be cluttered with convenience features to produce up-to-date image quality.  I'd happily use a manual camera that has a current 18-24MP full-frame sensor.

[Rob C]

Few yesteryear cameras will produce today's image quality.  There no technical reason a camera needs to be cluttered with convenience features to produce up-to-date image quality.  I'd happily use a manual camera that has a current 18-24MP full-frame sensor.

Quite; just what I've been advocating all along. Less often is more. It irks me to have to pay for all that crap that I then disable in the name of convenience. The image is the goal, not the playing with cameras.

Rob C

[stamper]

Rob, the Fujix100 should have you drooling with delight? The nearest you will get to what you want with the exception of the M9. If there is money to be made then they will produce what you want but I don't think there is. What you are doing Rob disabling what you don't want is sensible. For me no picture controls, sharpening, scene modes, automatic or auto, or anything that the camera decides is best. I know where you are coming from but the makers don't care. I looked at the possibility of the Fuji but the wide angle lens was too wide for my taste and the thought of buying - if it was possible - a longer lens was too expensive an option on top of the £1,000 for the camera. I bought the Canon g12. The HD movie mode ,which up to now I had shunned, is better than I had anticipated. Even better than the thought of painting.