Bill Atkinson profiles not working here

[KenBabcock]

So today I picked up an old 7600 that has had less then a few hundred prints made with it over the years.  It was cheap and I bought it for a project I have in mind.

Anyway, the Atkinson profiles that everyone raves about is simply not working.  I'm getting a prominent magenta cast on the premium photo luster.  I'm about to try canvas but I expect the same results.  I'm running Windows 7 Ultimate with the 7600 Vista 64 bit drivers and Photoshop CS5.  I also have Lightroom 3.3 but have not tried printing from there yet.

The problem is that years ago I had another 7600 and tried the profiles then while running Windows XP and Photoshop 7.  Same thing. 

As soon as I revert back to my usual printing method everything is bang on.  Now I can see one time, but two times and both with different operating systems and versions of Photoshop??  Something doesn't sound right with the profiles.

Ideas?

[KenBabcock]

Just ran some canvas prints and as I suspected, the prints are way too dark using the Atkinson profiles.  Same as years ago with a completely different setup.

If I allow the printer to handle colour the prints are perfect.  As soon as I select Photoshop to manage colour and select the Atkinson profile is when things get dark and red.

I really don't know how anyone has used these profiles in the past with success.

[jaapb]

As soon as I revert back to my usual printing method everything is bang on.

Hi Ken,

I am interested to know what your usual printing method is. Having the same problem over time it seems to me it is a systematic problem in your setup.
Important to consider if you didn't already:
-when printing with profiles, TURN OFF color management in the printer driver ("no colormanagement" in the dropdown)
-soft proof your image
-profile/calibrate your monitor. LCD's tend to be very bright at default
-read the excellent article, here on Lula, by Andrew Rodney:  http://luminous-landscape.com/tutorials/why_are_my_prints_too_dark.shtml


Hope this helps.

Jaap

[Sven W]

I suspect that over six years old profiles are hard to use today. Not that they age by them self, but the setup they where made under has probably changed. Or difficult to repeat.
And you are using exactly the same canvas that the profile is made for?

/Sven

[Peterretep]

Up until last October when I replaced my 7600 I had used Bill's profiles for many years. I never had a problem and they did help make good prints.

Peter

[KenBabcock]

I am doing all of that and my monitor is calibrated.

If I print using the Adobe98 profile and selecting enhanced matte as media (when printing on canvas) the image is exactly as my monitor shows.

I will read that link you provided - thanks.

Not a big deal though.  Just thought I'd like to try these profiles for comparison.  I'm happy enough with the results I get.  It's now more trying to figure out the mystery of why these profiles never worked for me even with completely different setups.

[KenBabcock]

Well I'm sure the canvas has changed over time.  I've been trying it with Epson Premium.  However the Premium line is now discontinued and has been replaced by the Exhibition canvas, so I'm sure things will change again.  But I still don't think the prints should look that bad.

Peter, can you be more specific on what settings you used?  As mentioned above, I'm quite happy with the results while not using those profiles, but I'd like to solve the mystery why the Atkinson profiles have given me so much trouble.

[Garnick]

Hi Ken,

I've been using the Atkinson profiles for over 6 years with two 7600 printers. The profiles have always performed as expected and I've produced some excellent results with them. And as one other post suggested, your issue would seem to be systematic. First of all, AdobeRGB 1998 is a working(colour) space, not a printer profile. However, if you have been achieving good results with it, I can't knock it. I'm wondering if you have read all of the accompanying literature that is downloaded with the Atkinson profiles and if you have completed all of the setups required to help the profile do its job properly. It might be a good idea to go back over those setups and make sure they are indeed correct. It still sounds like a matter of double profiling to me. In other words, you MUST make sure that when letting PS manage colours, the colour management is turned OFF in the driver. And by that I mean in the final print dialog, under Printer Settings, NOT in the area where you chose Printer Manages Colour or PS manages Colour etc. There is a selection there for No Colour Management, but it's used mainly for printing profiling targets. DO NOT use that setting! Also, make sure the correct Media Type is selected, according to the profile literature. And of course the wrong Rendering Intent can definitely have an adverse affect on the outcome as well.

There are a lot of us who have used the Atkinson profiles successfully in the past, and I still use them on one 7600, so unfortunately it would seem that perhaps something in YOUR setup is amiss. If you are satisfied with your current workflow and its results that's really all that matters, but if you want to solve this issue I would strongly suggest that you retrace your tracks in the profile setup department.

Gary  

[KenBabcock]

Hi Gary,

Thanks for the reply.

I've read and re-read multiple times the instructions to use the profiles.  I've checked my settings dozens of times.  I know for a fact everything is set according to the instructions.

I'm not a newbie to printing.  I've been doing this for many years and with multiple printers so I'd like to think I know what I'm doing   It's just this one model printer with these particular profiles.  So frustrating.  I've been an artist for over 20 years and a photographer over 10, so I also know my colours, and I know when I print without these profiles my pics are bang on.  I just wanted to get a taste of them.

Now when I think about it, could it be I'm running Windows 7 with the Vista 64 bit 7600 drivers?  But that wouldn't explain years ago when I attempted this with my XP setup.  Hmmm...

Oh well, nothing I'm going to sweat over.  This printer was just being used for some testing purposes anyway.

[Wayne Fox]

Epson 76-9600 printers weren't very consistent, and who knows what's happened to this one over the years - it could easily be out of tolerance.  Might try using colorbase tore-calibrate the printer.

[Garnick]

I'm not a newbie to printing.  I've been doing this for many years and with multiple printers so I'd like to think I know what I'm doing  

Hi Again Ken,

I wasn't insinuating that you weren't familiar with the aspects of printing or the nuances of these machines. But as the previous poster mentioned, it still sounds like a user error to me. Sometimes the smallest oversight can cause a huge problem in the final result. Believe me, I know that from personal experience. And of course there's also the possibility that these profiles have become corrupted since they were initially downloaded. You might want to try printing on another paper type and use the corresponding profile, just to check the consistency. If the other profile is showing the same sort of negative result, try reinstalling the profiles or resetting the PS Preferences, or both. Just a thought. However, since you probably won't be using the profiles anyway, all of this is probably moot. I've just finished printing a canvas on the 7600 with the Atkinson Enhanced Matte profile and it worked perfectly. Of course there was testing required, but that's usually the case. If you have a profile that creates a print exactly matching your calibrated display I envy you. That's something that very seldom happens, as noted by many very well know and respected printers. That's not saying that it never happens, but seldom.

Gary

[Sven W]

If you have a profile that creates a print exactly matching your calibrated display I envy you. That's something that very seldom happens, as noted by many very well know and respected printers. That's not saying that it never happens, but seldom.

Gary

That's the history of old printers !
With the latest models of Epson and Canon it happens all the time.
E.g. Epson X900 + ImagePrint + Eizo monitor + Efi proofing paper 

/Sven

[Schewe]

I've read and re-read multiple times the instructions to use the profiles.  I've checked my settings dozens of times.  I know for a fact everything is set according to the instructions.

Uh huh...well, unless you state EXACTLY what you are doing, all we can do is guess...and my guess is you are indeed doing something wrong. As you've said, it's a new printer for you. I would presume (but not assume) that you've downloaded the most recent drivers (what driver version are you using) and that you know how to set up CS5 and the driver...but you've not stated exactly what the settings are for CS5 & the driver.

The fact that you said "If I print using the Adobe98 profile and selecting enhanced matte as media (when printing on canvas) the image is exactly as my monitor shows." indicates to me it's user error...cause setting Adobe RGB as your output profile is, well, wrong. If that gives you good print, it's an accident cause that's not the proper color managed workflow.

Bill knows what he's doing...you? Not so much, I think.

[KenBabcock]

Gary, you just finished printing on canvas using Bill's enhanced matte profile?  I used enhanced matte on canvas normally when I used to print on canvas with my old 7600, but this time I selected canvas as media because that's what the instructions said to do.  I'm gonna give this a whirl.

Schewe, you don't have to be a rude knob!  I've printed thousands of images over many, many years of printing, so I'd like to think I actually do know how to print.  One little error on an old model Epson is hardly enough to say someone doesn't know how to print!  By the way, you may wanna read what I said again before commenting.  7600 models are NOT new to me.  I did state that I had another one years ago, so they're hardly "new" to me.  I've been messing with canvas and art for 25 years, printing is just an extension. One silly error is not enough to be rendered incompetent.  I guess you've never made a mistake printing?   

[KenBabcock]

Got it using the enhanced matte profile instead of canvas.

I do see a difference in my prints, however, now the print is not matching my monitor.  So either calibrate the monitor to Bill's profiles or go back to the old system and achieve prints dead on to what I see on my monitor.

Thanks guys!

[Schewe]

I've printed thousands of images over many, many years of printing, so I'd like to think I actually do know how to print.  One little error on an old model Epson is hardly enough to say someone doesn't know how to print! 

Maybe you do and maybe you don't...can't tell since you've not bothered to post exactly what settings you've used in CS5 and the Epson driver...so, do you want help or do you just want to piss&moan™? Saying you are getting a screen match by using Adobe RGB as an output profile is very suspect...

[KenBabcock]

I already got it, thanks.

You can believe what you want, but on both the 7600 printers I've owned, using Adobe RGB and selecting enhanced matte as media gives me exact canvas prints to what I see on my monitor.  Fluke?  Maybe, but it works.  Don't know about paper; I've really only ever used the 7600 for canvas.  My "new" 7600 will also be used just for a large canvas project I have.

I don't know about other models while using the settings I mentioned with the 7600.  My 9880 and 8300 obviously don't have that issue.  It was just that one little thing driving me nuts on the 7600 and it was something simple, although I did follow Bill's directions as described.  I simply changed the media setting from canvas to enhanced matte while using his profile and voila!

[Wayne Fox]

I already got it, thanks.

You can believe what you want, but on both the 7600 printers I've owned, using Adobe RGB and selecting enhanced matte as media gives me exact canvas prints to what I see on my monitor.  Fluke? 

Yep ... fluke.  As long as you don't want to ever print the same image on any other printer and any other media  might be OK, but would be better off just figuring out what you are doing wrong or what is wrong with your printer.  Using AdobeRGB  as an output profile is really never a good idea, even if happens to "work".

[KenBabcock]

I spent a portion of today downloading more of Bill Atkinson's profiles and I purchased more paper.

I can say that on all paper tests, Bill's profiles were definitely superior.  However, I still maintain that my canvas prints without using his profiles were better than the canvas prints using his canvas profile.

Four different canvases were used, including Epson.  All four samples looked much better without his canvas profile.  I made many prints on the canvases trying different settings, and my mind could not be changed about which looked better.

So it would appear that his profiles were definitely better on paper, especially the premium photo luster, but not on canvas.  So is my canvas method still a fluke?  Perhaps, but the prints don't lie.

Glad I got the 7600 dialed in with Bill's profiles.  However, sadly I will not be using them for anything because this 7600 (with just over a couple hundred prints ever made on it) was purchased solely for a canvas project.  The paper will remain on the 9880 and 8300.

Thanks for all the suggestions in my quest to conquer the errors in using Bill's profiles.

[Wayne Fox]

So it would appear that his profiles were definitely better on paper, especially the premium photo luster, but not on canvas.  So is my canvas method still a fluke?  Perhaps, but the prints don't lie.

Yes, it's still a fluke.  The entire idea of using profiles is mapping the colors to the gamut of the output ... the canvas has a far smaller gamut than AdobeRGB.  Now if you are letting the printer control the color, that's a different story and ymmv based on how well you tweak the driver (but then you aren't using AdobeRGB as your output profile)

What canvas's are Bill's profiles for?  I don't think you can even buy the same canvas.  I believe Epson has improved their lines of canvas with substantially improved gamut twice since the 7600 - not surprising Bill's don't work too well.  Papers like Epson Premium Luster have changed little, but many of the canvas's have.

The best way to handle this would be having a profile made.  It isn't that expensive.  Many of us got into making profiles because the old Epson's just weren't that consistent. Heck, buy a $400 colormunki and do it yourself get decent profiles (if the munki can handle canvas, not sure).