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Author Topic: If its not megapixels what is it?  (Read 51565 times)

hjulenissen

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Re: If its not megapixels what is it?
« Reply #80 on: May 19, 2011, 10:39:35 am »

well said!
Since this subforum is entitled "equipment and techniques", I am not surprised to find posts about equipment here...

A few great artists haven't got a clue about the technology that enable their art. A number of great artists (not only photographers) have gone to great lengths to master the technology that they found relevant to their art. A great number of non-artists have spent wast amounts of time thinking and discussing technology without being able to produce art that others found worthy. I have no problem with either.

-h
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hjulenissen

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Re: If its not megapixels what is it?
« Reply #81 on: May 19, 2011, 10:41:29 am »

Possibly, or probably for most non-photographers, but, and it is a big but, is the difference worth something in excess of $40,000 (excluding the cost of the camera body and lenses) and furthermore would the client pay for it?
First one should establish that there is a perceivable difference, under what circumstances people are able to perceive it, and if it is a positive or negative. Then one could try to estimate what it is worth, but that is likely to be extremely individual, as some people have more money than others, or prioritize differently.

What if the client is irrational, demanding 200 MP files even if he cannot perceive a difference from 30 MP ones?

-h
« Last Edit: May 19, 2011, 10:44:43 am by hjulenissen »
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Guy Mancuso

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Re: If its not megapixels what is it?
« Reply #82 on: May 19, 2011, 11:54:25 am »

First one should establish that there is a perceivable difference, under what circumstances people are able to perceive it, and if it is a positive or negative. Then one could try to estimate what it is worth, but that is likely to be extremely individual, as some people have more money than others, or prioritize differently.

What if the client is irrational, demanding 200 MP files even if he cannot perceive a difference from 30 MP ones?

-h

Sorry had to butt in. As a commercial shooter , give what your client wants or eat rice for dinner. Even if there wrong. Certainly like many of us do we educate our clients but fact is many love the fact your showing up with a race horse than a jackass. My clients love my 40 mpx and soon they will get 60mpx. Too much , who cares its our marketing points to sell ourselves. This is a business and to grow our business we need not only talent but we need technology that also helps us grow. How much these things cost is a relative term , its how much we get on our return is what counts and also what WE want to shoot. It's my art too and i want the best . I have tested the IQ 180 twice and shot the production version as well. It's state of the art and it works for me. The rest is meaningless to be honest. I have a Epson 7900 and the prints are amazing
« Last Edit: May 19, 2011, 12:01:51 pm by Guy Mancuso »
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Erick Boileau

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Re: If its not megapixels what is it?
« Reply #83 on: May 19, 2011, 12:16:33 pm »

Really? Ya think so?

Looks like you have obliterated the entire medium format industry in a single sentence.

Nice.

Michael
if you are happy with it

but of course A2 will be the same  with a Nikon D3X and a IQ 180

Possibly, or probably for most non-photographers
even for photographers
« Last Edit: May 19, 2011, 12:18:55 pm by erickb »
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michael

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Re: If its not megapixels what is it?
« Reply #84 on: May 19, 2011, 12:25:21 pm »


but of course A2 will be the same  with a Nikon D3X and a IQ 180
even for photographers


But of course! Why would I doubt the evidence of my own eyes and experience over your clearly superior knowledge?

I simply have to accept that I have been living with an illusion. I'll sell my IQ80 first chance that I can find a sucker ( err customer) to take it off my hands.

Michael
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Erick Boileau

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Re: If its not megapixels what is it?
« Reply #85 on: May 19, 2011, 12:28:27 pm »

But of course! Why would I doubt the evidence of my own eyes and experience over your clearly superior knowledge?

I simply have to accept that I have been living with an illusion. I'll sell my IQ80 first chance that I can find a sucker ( err customer) to take it off my hands.

Michael
I remember very well your half-kidding  review : G10 / P45+   prints --> http://luminous-landscape.com/reviews/kidding.shtml

But, where the rubber meets the road (or more to the point where the ink hits the paper), in medium sized prints it's been almost impossible for experienced photographers who I've shown these comparison prints to to tell the difference. Scary.

I have not a superior knowledge just a P45 and a 5D mark II and an Epson 3880  and  I prefer the P45
« Last Edit: May 19, 2011, 12:31:11 pm by erickb »
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michael

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Re: If its not megapixels what is it?
« Reply #86 on: May 19, 2011, 12:30:54 pm »

Guy,

Sorry my friend but you and I and the tens of thousands of pros around that world that are shooting with MF backs have to accept that fact that we are delusional. A D3x ( maybe even just an X100) is all we really need.

No one can see the difference between an 80MP MF back and a 24MP Nikon. Not anyone, not nohow. The Emperor is truly naked.

Michael
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Erick Boileau

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Re: If its not megapixels what is it?
« Reply #87 on: May 19, 2011, 12:33:15 pm »

Guy,

Sorry my friend but you and I and the tens of thousands of pros around that world that are shooting with MF backs have to accept that fact that we are delusional. A D3x ( maybe even just an X100) is all we really need.

-->  http://luminous-landscape.com/reviews/kidding.shtml

But, where the rubber meets the road (or more to the point where the ink hits the paper), in medium sized prints it's been almost impossible for experienced photographers who I've shown these comparison prints to to tell the difference. Scary.  

No one can see the difference between an 80MP MF back and a 24MP Nikon. Not anyone, not nohow. The Emperor is truly naked.
I said A2   dont change my words  please
« Last Edit: May 19, 2011, 12:35:28 pm by erickb »
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BlasR

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Re: If its not megapixels what is it?
« Reply #88 on: May 19, 2011, 12:41:34 pm »

I remember very well your half-kidding  review : G10 / P45+   prints --> http://luminous-landscape.com/reviews/kidding.shtml

But, where the rubber meets the road (or more to the point where the ink hits the paper), in medium sized prints it's been almost impossible for experienced photographers who I've shown these comparison prints to to tell the difference. Scary.

I have not a superior knowledge just a P45 and a 5D mark II and an Epson 3880  and  I prefer the P45



THAT WAS October, 2008.  We are almost 2011 :-* :-*
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Guy Mancuso

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Re: If its not megapixels what is it?
« Reply #89 on: May 19, 2011, 12:42:27 pm »

Guy,

Sorry my friend but you and I and the tens of thousands of pros around that world that are shooting with MF backs have to accept that fact that we are delusional. A D3x ( maybe even just an X100) is all we really need.

No one can see the difference between an 80MP MF back and a 24MP Nikon. Not anyone, not nohow. The Emperor is truly naked.

Michael

I know Michael. I guess the bigger is better is just not cutting it. Seriously folks I agree here since we both have shot these a lot already along with Mark and Jack we are just not that freaking nuts. There is a nice difference in this 180 back that i think the 4 of us can completely agree is very special in LOOK. As we all have come from other backs it seems to me as we have kept going to smaller microns the backs have improved both in DR and color response with a much smoother tonal range. The look is very nice and for me I am going for the IQ 160 since i need the speed of back more than us 4 since i do more commercial work that requires speed and also sensor plus. I will say it does pain me a little with my choice since i would rather have this new sensor but the IQ 160 is my balance point and will go with that. Not sure why folks always question this stuff, we are NOT lying to you we see something special in this back and we are just giving you all the data points. Admittedly we do love these backs but we are also trying like hell not to be fanboys either. It's hard when you are looking at something completely revolutionary in the IQ 180.

I never seen and i will just call it the whole LCD integration is the absolute best in the business and go to your local dealer and hold one in your hand is all I can say than you just might get it.

Folks I am not trying to be snide here either. I am spending a load of money here just like the next guy and my neck is on the line with my clients and I will never risk that with inferior product. Also you need to realize we 4 all teach photography so we can't be that lame. LOL
« Last Edit: May 19, 2011, 12:49:00 pm by Guy Mancuso »
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LKaven

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Re: If its not megapixels what is it?
« Reply #90 on: May 19, 2011, 12:57:53 pm »

let's compare two A2 prints, one with a IQ 180 and one with a fuji X100  (or any good 35mm)  ... nobody will ever see any difference

One thing you get from a high pixel-count camera, as others around here know well, is an increase in detail retained after downsampling.  A native 12MP capture is a very different thing from a 24.5 (or 40 or 60 or 80) MP capture /downsampled/ to 12MP.  There is a level of fine detail up near the Nyquist limit for 12MP sampling that is retained after downsampling a high MP capture, that simply doesn't exist in the native 12MP capture.

I always go back to one of Lloyd Chambers' tests.  He shot the label of a soup can with a D3 and a D3x, then downsampled the D3x output to 12MP and compared 100% crops.  The text was smooth and rounded on the downsampled D3x capture, and fragmented on the native 12MP D3 capture.  This reflects high-frequency detail that was -- more or less -- lost in the native 12MP D3 capture. 

John R Smith

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Re: If its not megapixels what is it?
« Reply #91 on: May 19, 2011, 02:02:20 pm »

I always go back to one of Lloyd Chambers' tests.  He shot the label of a soup can with a D3 and a D3x, then downsampled the D3x output to 12MP and compared 100% crops.  The text was smooth and rounded on the downsampled D3x capture, and fragmented on the native 12MP D3 capture.  This reflects high-frequency detail that was -- more or less -- lost in the native 12MP D3 capture. 

So you do get better detail in smaller prints with a downsampled image. That was what I was questioning, and what I wanted to know. Which would completely explain why Michael, Guy and others are seeing a difference at small print sizes.

John
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dchew

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Re: If its not megapixels what is it?
« Reply #92 on: May 19, 2011, 02:17:33 pm »

Howard,
Actually, I believe it is easier to achieve accurate focus on a tech camera vs. a MFDSLR.  It is very much easier to get "pretty darn close" with a MFDSLR.  For example, On a Phase DF camera, switch to autofocus and let it do its thing. Or better yet, switch to manual focus and watch the focus arrows in the display. This gets you as close as the AF system can do (and/or as good as my eyes can see through the viewfinder).  However, a calibrated system like an Arca or Alpa along with a distometer is more accurate in my experience.  One of the main reasons is the amount of rotation it takes to make small changes in focus.  Arca is the extreme case, where you turn until your wrist is tired! 

At a recent PODAS event, many of the other participants made comments about how sharp and accurate my images were compared to what they were seeing.  I believe this is because of the focus process.  The first day I used the Phase DF issued to all of us.  Those images were inconsistent in regards to sharpness, yet all at similar apertures and ISOs.  I think the Phase camera is pretty darn good, but I have yet to find a camera that can autofocus as well as a precise manual process.

Of course for focusing, neither is as good as real live-view.  On my 5DII, I can see what almost looks like moire on the back LCD when it is focused just right at 10x in live-view.  So far that is the only system in which I feel confident I am getting everything the system has to offer.  Again, in my experience, this is significantly more accurate than letting the camera auto focus.  Especially with wide-angle lenses.

Dave

The choice of tools to make photographs, like most choices in life, comes down to weighing the plusses and minuses for you and your way of working. I have to assume that the reason why the very top fine art landscape photographers do not use tech cameras is that, for them, the the negatives in terms of making the best images outweigh the positives. These are individuals who come from a large format film background, so I am sure the issues of speed/convenience and the cost of  a tech camera are simply not relevant. OTOH, the lack of an optical viewfinder (or useful groundglass) allowing for precise composition is, IMO, a significant issue when you shoot a tech camera untethered. A key part of composing an image is making effective use of the full canvas captured by the sensor. Another issue is the difficulty of achieving  accurate focusing with a tech camera. Finally, related to the first issue but still distinct is being able to see through the lens, so you have a real time sense of the perspective of the image as captured by the lens. The wide or longer the lens, the bigger the deal this is, because it is quite difficult to really "see" the same way that a wide lens like a 24HR "sees" the world. (I know I cannot.) It will be interesting to see whether the IQ series of backs helps to overcome these disadvantages. Michael R. is using an IQ180 with his new Alpa.

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hjulenissen

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Re: If its not megapixels what is it?
« Reply #93 on: May 19, 2011, 02:50:26 pm »

One thing you get from a high pixel-count camera, as others around here know well, is an increase in detail retained after downsampling.  A native 12MP capture is a very different thing from a 24.5 (or 40 or 60 or 80) MP capture /downsampled/ to 12MP.  There is a level of fine detail up near the Nyquist limit for 12MP sampling that is retained after downsampling a high MP capture, that simply doesn't exist in the native 12MP capture.  
I dont understand this line of reasoning. A 12 MP camera is going to have some spatial resolution, and a 80 MP camera is going to have some spatial resolution. Both will have less resolution than a hypothetical Nyquist-only limited 12/80 MP camera, so what? What matters is the real, observed spatial resolution.

Neither your display not your printer is probably going to be precisely 12 MP or 80 MP, and when you change camera you dont want to change everything else. So you might as well go for a camera having the highest possible resolution you are willing to pay form(or one that is comfortably higher than the weakest link from scene to perception of reproduction), that will be a good starting point for resampling to whatever the outputdevice is capable of.

-h
« Last Edit: May 19, 2011, 02:54:13 pm by hjulenissen »
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LKaven

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Re: If its not megapixels what is it?
« Reply #94 on: May 19, 2011, 02:54:51 pm »

I dont understand this line of reasoning. A 12 MP camera is going to have some spatial resolution, and a 80 MP camera is going to have some spatial resolution. Both will have less resolution than a hypothetical Nyquist-only limited 12/80 MP camera, so what? What matters is the real, observed spatial resolution.

I apologize, but I can't make sense out of this question as stated.  I don't know what "hypothetical Nyquist-only limited 12/80 MP camera" means.

[PS - I see now you edited this reply while I was posting mine, but I still can't understand the question.]

vjbelle

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Re: If its not megapixels what is it?
« Reply #95 on: May 19, 2011, 04:41:12 pm »

let's compare two A2 prints, one with a IQ 180 and one with a fuji X100  (or any good 35mm)  ... nobody will ever see any difference


You are kidding...... Right?? :o
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Erick Boileau

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Re: If its not megapixels what is it?
« Reply #96 on: May 19, 2011, 04:46:52 pm »

You are kidding...... Right?? :o
for A2 prints and Nikon D3x vs IQ 180 ? no not at all
but you know it by your own  I guess
« Last Edit: May 20, 2011, 01:08:12 am by erickb »
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hjulenissen

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Re: If its not megapixels what is it?
« Reply #97 on: May 19, 2011, 04:56:23 pm »

I apologize, but I can't make sense out of this question as stated.  I don't know what "hypothetical Nyquist-only limited 12/80 MP camera" means.

[PS - I see now you edited this reply while I was posting mine, but I still can't understand the question.]
I was talking about this statement:
One thing you get from a high pixel-count camera, as others around here know well, is an increase in detail retained after downsampling.  A native 12MP capture is a very different thing from a 24.5 (or 40 or 60 or 80) MP capture /downsampled/ to 12MP.  There is a level of fine detail up near the Nyquist limit for 12MP sampling that is retained after downsampling a high MP capture, that simply doesn't exist in the native 12MP capture.  
Everything else equal, a 80 MP camera could/should record more details than a 12 MP camera. Given that you are not limited by optics, camera movement, etc. Are you saying anything else than the statement "80 > 12"? If so, what is it that you are saying?

-h
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EricWHiss

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Re: If its not megapixels what is it?
« Reply #98 on: May 19, 2011, 05:05:29 pm »

There are those who spend their lives listening to the sound system rather than the music. There are those who spend their lives looking at image qualities rather than images.

It's definitely a great sound bite, and words to contemplate because we all get caught up in the new gear too much sometimes, but remember there are those that make their livings designing and producing and selling sound and imaging equipment whose job it is to pay attention to those details.  Probably / hopefully a lot of the folks in the hardware and software design (and not just sales) are participating in these forums.  And in any case I think it does not take away from your ability to shoot a beautiful image by knowing how your tools work, where their strengths and weaknesses are. 
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LKaven

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Re: If its not megapixels what is it?
« Reply #99 on: May 19, 2011, 05:16:36 pm »

I was talking about this statement:Everything else equal, a 80 MP camera could/should record more details than a 12 MP camera. Given that you are not limited by optics, camera movement, etc. Are you saying anything else than the statement "80 > 12"? If so, what is it that you are saying?

I'm saying that if you take an 80MP capture /and downsample it to 12MP/, that there will be a level of detail preserved that is not reflected in a native 12MP capture.  We're comparing two 12MP images in this case - one derived from downsampling, and the other not.  So I am not just saying that 80 > 12 here.

The extra level of detail will be high frequency information appearing near the Nyquist frequency of the 12MP capture.  The loss is occurring around where the slope of the AA filter on the 12MP camera kicks in.  The "more or less" that I referred to involves the extent to which detail in the native 12MP capture might be reconstructed using, for example, deconvolution.
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