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Author Topic: Working with Glamour II  (Read 4023 times)

Justan

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Working with Glamour II
« on: May 11, 2011, 11:56:36 am »

I've made 6 tests with Glamour 2. I've done the tests on prints ranging from about 2’ x 2’ up to 2’ x 6’. I'm using a roller and have some questions.

If one follows the directions provided by the manufacturer (Breathing Color), the process goes pretty well. I also read a comment that amounted to “Follow their directions and make sure that when you are done that the finished application looks as if you spilled a glass of water on it.” Walk away from it and don’t come back to do the recommended final pass. This is what I've done, and I'm mostly happy with the results.

I have some questions.

I've gotten bubbles and pin holes on some of the tests. I didn’t see them right away. When is it too late to pop the bubbles or fill the pinholes? Related, when is it too late to use a brush to re-apply or fix up minor defects after the application?

To get a uniform coating, I slightly over sweep or more accurately, roll the material past the print edges. While this works okay, it has the by-product of gluing the canvas to the underlayment. I use craft paper for an underlayment. Is there a better way to do this?

I tried to move the coated prints shortly after finishing. I was concerned that moving the wet print would stretch it. Is this a valid concern?

When the prints dry (again on craft paper) they tend to pucker a bit. Will this go away when the prints are stretched or laminated? Should I use a different material for an underlayment?

Is it a good idea to make the boarders of the print larger than they need to be to facilitate handling, and then trim off the excess after coating?

After my last tests, I let the prints dry for about 24 hours. They were dry to the touch. I had to transport them about 80 miles, so I rolled 2 of them together on a 3” paper core, transported them and at the destination went to unroll them. Naturally, one stuck in a few places to the other, which ruined a 6’ long print. Sigh. This is what testing is for. But how long do these need to dry before they are thoroughly stable?

For those that spray on the application, how many coats do you use? Do you hang the prints or lay them flat?

Thanks!
« Last Edit: May 11, 2011, 11:58:57 am by Justan »
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bill t.

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Re: Working with Glamour II
« Reply #1 on: May 11, 2011, 03:13:40 pm »

In no particular order...

For all types of coating I tape the prints down on large pieces of foamcore, 100% taped on all four sides.  For HVLP, I use 1" blue "low stick" tape from 3M.  For rolling, regular 2" masking tape.  For rolling the 2" gives a clean surface on which to reverse direction.  Yes lots of extra work there in the tape department, but beyond cleanliness the canvas very slightly shrinks as it dries which yields a nice flat, undistorted print, an advantage to us Gator mounters.   I always leave white borders, mainly for mounting purposes.   I leave the prints taped up on the foamcore coating substrate until I'm ready to mount them, very convenient for handling and storage.

36 hours minimum before leaning anything against the coatings.  Maybe 3 days before I would consider surface to surface contact between prints or rolling into a tube.

OK, I like to lay down a lot of coating when rolling, maybe up to twice as much as when spraying.  For me, keeping the surface wet seems to solve a lot of problems.  Problem #1 when coating occurs when parts of the print start going tacky before you've finished with the rest of the print which usually is a result of trying to transfer coating to the canvas via the roller.  You gotta pour the coating on, then qickly spread it over the entire print.  A nice wet surface also gives you a longer working window, that's it's big advantage.  But don't use so much that you completely obscure the canvas weave when dry.

Various canvases have varying degrees of the pinhole problem.  I have found after much experience that if I gently work the canvas long enough the coating will get to the point where it is tacky enough to fill in pinholes, but not so tacky that marks from the edge of the roller will not level out.  This works better when there's a lot of coating, and not so well for thin coats.  It's a relatively critical call, you just have to practice.  Once a while I have gone back and rolled over a very tacky coating to kill sudden stealth pinholes, and I have usually gotten away with it.

An aside...if you do think you're going to wind up with edge marks in your coatings, one option is to have at it with a brush to introduce a multitude of artistic simulated brush marks.  I did not say that.

Have to mention that I am rather impatient, don't want to spray or roll more than 1 coat.  Multiple thin rolling sessions will also get you around the pinhole problem, however I personally am no longer young.  For the record, if you chose to do multiple coats be careful of the grunge that builds up where you reverse roller direction, don't drag that stuff on to the print on the second session.

For HVLP one thick coat of 3:1 Glamour, 15ml per square foot.  Mark the vertical extremes of the canvas in 4" sections.  Set the metronome to 84 clicks per second.  Back the needle out a lot, air valve to the max.  Take a vertical swipe lasting exactly 5 clicks per 4 feet.  When you've done all the 4" marks, go back and do the same interpolating BETWEEN the 4" marks.  Watch your distance, watch your speed, and you'll be sorry if you hesitate.  Use a brush to remove coating from the tape so it doesn't run onto the print, tape is much last absorbent than canvas.  I am generally within a nonce of getting serious runs using this technique.  Takes practice, buy oh my it's so sweet and so fast and the coatings really look great.  Others will have to experiment to find their personal best parameters.

Hardcore HVLP artists can buy a 5000 gram digital scale on ebay for less than 20 bucks.  I used to weigh my loaded gun before and after each of my two spraying passes to verify how much spray I had actually put down.  Thanks to the metronome, was typically 240ml each pass when coating a 4 x 8 sheet full of canvas.  A fully loaded Fuji spray gun weights 1950 grams, in case you're interested.

HVLP is the way to go, no doubt about it.  I only roll on miserably cold days in the dead of winter when the shed is simply too cold to heat, and sometimes for tests.

A great art teacher I knew used to make students do at least 100 variations of each new technique as quickly as possible, that's what you need with canvas coating.  Save those reject prints and just experiment free and easy.  I promise you'll learn something.
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ftbt

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Re: Working with Glamour II
« Reply #2 on: May 11, 2011, 04:15:36 pm »

Here is my typical work flow for a 24" x 36" canvas using a Wagner Control Max system:

Glamour 2 laminate: Typically about a cup consisting of 1/3 distilled water and 2/3 laminate. (Obviously, the 2/3's can be whatever mix of gloss and/or matte to achieve the desired look.)

Wagner Control Max: Compressor set to minimum pressure; Spray gun to medium or slightly below medium.

Canvas: Laid flat on butcher paper on a table about 4' above the ground. (The Control Max spray gun will allow you to point or tilt the gun to spray at a downward angle.)

Spray: One light coat vertical, over-lapping by about 50%, (wait 15 minutes), one light coat horizontal (wait 15 minutes), then one heavy coat each, both vertical and horizontal, (waiting 15 minutes between each coat). The heavier coat is achieved by slightly adjusting the spray gun volume about a half of a turn. The gun is typically kept about 12'' above the canvas. When spraying, try not to bend or twist your wrist to achieve the spraying motion. You want to keep your wrist locked and achieve more of a spraying motion with your arm and upper body, in order to insure that you keep the spraying distance from the gun to the canvas uniform across the length and width of the canvas.

Canvas appearance: The last coat should look somewhat milky or hazy with even a slight "orange peel." When done, walk away. It won't dry any faster with you looking at it. Let it dry for at least 12 hours. I normally wait 24 before I gallery wrap.

Cracking: If you get any cracking around the stretcher bars or on your folds, it means that you did not apply enough laminate.
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neile

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Re: Working with Glamour II
« Reply #3 on: May 11, 2011, 11:24:02 pm »

In no particular order...

Bill, you win the prize for the most awesome post in this forum in, uh, well since I've been reading it. I'd give you some sort of cool award for it, but apparently you already have three Oscars (!) so my little award would look silly by comparison.

Next time you're in Seattle (or I'm in NM) I will definitely buy you a beer. Although I fear going to bed tonight thinking about buying a metronome...

Neil
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bill t.

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Re: Working with Glamour II
« Reply #4 on: May 12, 2011, 02:39:02 am »

Thanks for the kind words, Neil!  A brewski it is.

So anyhoo I bought this little "ENO EM-11" metronome on ebay for $1.  It clips to my slovenly t-shirts very near my ear where it can be heard above the HVLP racket.  I'm sure Hawaiian shirt models are also available.  Search "clip metronome."

Nice thing about the metronome is it keeps me paced in a way that avoids the inevitable tendency to speed up throughout the application.  And coupled with the 4" spaced feduciary marks makes it possible to lay down an absolutely max'd out coat with relative safety.  With speed and spacing and volume under control, the only thing I really need to watch is distance, and I'm getting pretty good at that.

So don't lose too much sleep over this, and sweet dreams in 1/4 time, 84 BPM.  I used an 84 beat per minute mechanical metronome for about a decade in the darkroom, it gives me a sense of continuity.  It's over there on the shelf holding down the inkjet cartridges.

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Justan

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Re: Working with Glamour II
« Reply #5 on: May 13, 2011, 10:17:21 am »

Bill and Ftbt,

Thank you both for the wonderfully detailed replies!

A long time ago I worked for a couple of years refinishing old pianos. I don’t remember much about the spray technique (probably a combination of 30+ years of elapsed time…and the fumes), but I clearly have never heard of running a metronome while spraying. What a brilliant suggestion!

One thing I do remember is that for vertically positioned pieces, especially with heavy coats, it’s best to spray from the bottom to the top. This helps to avoid runs and sags.

Do I understand correctly that once the G II has passed the initial tacky stage then it’s a bad idea to apply touch up, and instead, to wait the proscribed time (20 minutes or so) and do a full recoat?

I agree that practice is needed. And also more light. Part of the issue I had during the last session is that the light level and angle were wrong to identify surface defects. But I was pleased with the overall results.

I ended up making some thumb impressions when moving the wet canvas. I smoothed these out with the same thumb, and was delighted to find that there was no trace of the thumb prints after the media dried.

Another suggestion is that using latex exam gloves is a great idea. I use these for everything from paper handling to, well, they come in very handy for just about any messy/dirty work.

Practice combined with feedback goes much further much quicker than practice alone. And one couldn’t hope for better feedback than has been provided above(!!) and elsewhere at this site.

One last q: Bill, do you slice away the taped area or just remove the tape?

I just bought 2 gallons of G II and a bunch of rollers for further work. Wish I could spray as it always produces superior results (and I have 2 spray guns)! Alas, in the mountains of Washington state, where I do this work, I’d have to install a 2nd furnace to create an adequate heat source to permit spraying. Either that or put off this kind of work until those glorious 2 weeks in August when it is both warm and dry enough to do this kind of thing unaided.

And….hmmm…..adding a brushed texture to the work. What a great idea! Wonder where I heard that………..

Thanks again!

stefano

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Re: Working with Glamour II
« Reply #6 on: May 14, 2011, 03:36:53 pm »

Bill,

I just finished my first attempt at spraying some Lyve canvas with Timeless Satin varnish, following as close as possible your method for Glamour. SUCCESS!!! Thanks for the post! I've been planning to try out the Wagner for a while, but always waited to have a full afternoon available as I was concerned about the mess and cleanup... Almost nonexistent!
Goodbye foam rollers! Hello Wagner control max!

Stefano
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neile

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Re: Working with Glamour II
« Reply #7 on: May 14, 2011, 08:04:23 pm »

Stefano,

What settings did you wind up using on your Wagner, specifically the big wheel on the back of the air unit?

Neil
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stefano

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Re: Working with Glamour II
« Reply #8 on: May 15, 2011, 06:15:01 pm »

Stefano,

What settings did you wind up using on your Wagner, specifically the big wheel on the back of the air unit?

Neil

I had the pressure set to minimum, and the trigger screw backed out almost 2/3 of the way. My canvas was laying flat on a table in the garage, mounted to a large cardboard with painter tape along the edges. The above setting made for a very thin coat, which I applied first horizontally and then vertically. I did two sets 15 minutes apart, and then two more sets with the trigger screw about 50% out for slightly heavier coats, again 15 minutes apart. It took me a little more than an hour overall, and just a few minutes for cleanup.

As this was my first attempt with the wagner I went for thin coats, figuring that it is always easier to add than to remove :)

I really like the finish I got with the above and timeless satin.

Stefano
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neile

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Re: Working with Glamour II
« Reply #9 on: May 15, 2011, 07:34:18 pm »

Cool, thanks. That's essentially the same procedure I use as well. Tonight I'm going to coat an 18x40" monster that is going to hang above my couch.

I kinda cheated a bit and made my image fit the canvas bars I had on hand, but... I figure a smidge of artistic license on the image is worth the instant gratification of not having to wait for different size bars to arrive!

Neil
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stefano

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Re: Working with Glamour II
« Reply #10 on: May 15, 2011, 09:23:16 pm »

That sounds nice! I only have a 17" printer, but I can see being bitten by the canvas bug and having to move up in size!
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Peter McLennan

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Re: Working with Glamour II
« Reply #11 on: July 11, 2011, 06:44:33 pm »

That sounds nice! I only have a 17" printer, but I can see being bitten by the canvas bug and having to move up in size!

I just did exactly that.  A new-to-me 9800 now sits beside my 4800. : )  and my first 40" wide print is taped to the wall, drying.

I've done exactly two stretches so far, both small, and with pretty good results.  I'm making my own stretcher bars from 2" wide fir with my mitre saw.
A few questions:

1) Why not spray after stretching?  What happens?

2) How much will canvas stretch?  I use LexJet Sunset Matte, but I have no idea how much undersize to make my bars for my first 40"X27" image size so that I don't see white border canvas on the face.  Does it stretch equally in both directions?  I have good canvas pliers.

3) With a 40" frame, do I need additional internal bracing?

Thanks!

Peter

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neile

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Re: Working with Glamour II
« Reply #12 on: July 12, 2011, 10:12:09 am »

To answer your questions, peter:

1) Spraying before stretching prevents ink from flaking off during the stretching process, particularly in the corners. It's a must-do prior to stretching.

2) You'll need to test and see. There's two approaches here: print first, then buy stretchers to fit the actual printed size of the image, or (as I do) print the size you expect (40x27 in your example), and stretch. I personally find with Sunset Select Matte on my 8300 that when I print a size, I get that size and can just buy the size bars I expect.

3) I would add one.

Neil
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Peter McLennan

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Re: Working with Glamour II
« Reply #13 on: July 12, 2011, 11:42:44 am »

Thanks, Neil. 

My pictures are flakey enough as it is. : )  I'll spray first.

I'll do a test stretch (and probably waste either the print or the stretchers)  Learning curve, I guess.

Peter
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