Spraying Timeless and bubbles

[mikev1]

Anyone else have any trouble with bubbles when spraying Timeless?  It is driving me nuts.  Not sure I can get it any finer.  I guess I need to move faster.

Funny thing is I can't recall ever getting bubbles with Eco Print shield.

Any tips for dealing with bubbles.  Seems you have about two seconds to act before you are screwed.

[Light Seeker]

I spray a mix of Timeless gloss and matte, typically 50/50, onto Lyve using an inexpensive Wagner HVLP gun. I will only occasionally see a bubble. When I do I use a toothpick to "pop" it, after I've finished that pass on the print. They always meld into the print and are invisible.

I have my Wagner set to atomize as finely as possible. The first two coats are very light, and go on quickly. Then I turn up the spray volume and put on two heavier coats. I have to check my filters regularly to ensure that the built-in compressor gets enough air. They get plugged all too easily.

Hope some of this helps.

Terry.

[neile]

I have no problems spraying Timeless using the tips I got from folks in this thread: http://www.luminous-landscape.com/forum/index.php?topic=50236.0.

Start with 2-3 super thin coats. Then slightly thicker after that.

Neil

[bill t.]

IMHO the Timeless bubble issue makes it not suitable for professional use.  All I've got time for is one thick coat, about 15ml per square foot, put down in two back to back passes.  Works like a charm with GlamourII.  Do that with Timeless and your print will be pock marked with bubbles.

Yeah, yeah I know...lots of thin coats.  But I just don't have the time or the patience for prima-donna coatings.  I wanna be able to knock out at least 90 square feet of prints a day, and Timeless does not have a place in that kind of pipeline.  Total time to coat 90 square feet stripped up on three panels should be no more than 1/2 hour including preparation and cleanup, absolute tops.

Or, viewed another way, if Timeless was a well designed product it wouldn't bubble under any circumstance.  I've used a lot of paints and coatings in my day, and Timeless is by far the best bubbler of the lot.  Nice try BC, but you missed.  Fix the bubble thing, then send me a replacement for that useless pail on my shelf.  And did I say it's too thin?  Having a bad hair day today.

[Colorwave]

Yikes!  Those are some serious craters, Bill.  It looks like you laid it on with an airless, though.  I like to not obscure the canvas texture. 

I also have issues with air bubbles when I lay it on as heavy as I used to with Glamour, but have found the sweet spot in spraying just enough to stop shy of having significant bubble problems. I lay down a couple of light coats over about 4 or 5 minutes, then one moderate coat.  I never get more than a couple of bubbles that way, and they often pop on their own without ever being noticeable.  When one refuses to pop on it's own after a minute or so, I tap it with the tip of an xacto knife and it lays out before drying. 

Since it is glossier than Glamour, I find that I don't need to lay down quite as much as I did with Glamour to get a similar look.  Given that Timeless is slightly thicker, straight out of the pail than the viscosity I mixed my Glamour to (50:50), I bet that I'm laying down a similar amount of solids, once the water evaporates. The issue of timing from spraying more coats versus a really heavy coat is not a factor for me, as I find that when drying and curing are taken into account, the total time is about the same.  It dries much faster, and is tougher sooner, so I don't think the overall workflow is much different.  That said, I'd like to see them add a bit of leveling agent to make it more forgiving to spray.

[bill t.]

Actually that's a close-up of a not very thick coating staring into a spotlight reflection.  Not trying to obscure texture at all, only trying to get a coating that offers some real abrasion protection and long term cleaning tolerance.

Dunno what the story is on Timeless.  My darkest suspicion is that it was rushed to market because of "UV" issues being discussed on forums like this and in other manufacturer's literature.  BC has a formidable hype department, maybe it got a little ahead of the facts on this product.

My basic gripe is, when I buy $90/gallon paints I really expect them to have superb application characteristics, starting with no bubbles.  Glamour II is pretty satifying there, but I'm not seeing that with Timeless.  One missed bubble on a big job is enough to seriously compromise the saleability of a print, and those dried moon-craters are quite hard to fix.

Come to think of it, never had bubbles with Clearshield or as the OP noted with the Eco stuff.  Maybe those are worth another look.

[Colorwave]

I know that you know what you are doing, Bill, and hope you didn't take my comments wrong.  I can tell that it has a hot spot of reflection, but would expect to see some grain from the canvas somewhere. I don't know what stage of the drying process this represents, and that it shrinks up somewhat as it cures.  The bottom line, though, is that it is a tough coating with UV and fungus protection (big for me here in Hawaii), but not a very forgiving product to spray.  On the bright side, it isn't cheap, but is at least less expensive and friendlier than the MirraChrome paint I have used a few times.  That stuff is $1,300 a gallon wholesale, and requires 30 or more coats to look it's best.  That would really kill your workflow.  It deposits a few microns of metal powder in each coat and can create a true mirror-like finish.  Now that I think about it, it might be fun to glaze a print with it to create just a hint of metallic sheen on canvas or fine art paper.  Oops, sorry for the digression . . .

[fetish]

for 90 sqf in 30mins without 2nd coat, i would recommend the ezglide.

spraying takes more time due to layers and waiting for the prev layer to dry. and depending on viscosity of the laminate, spraying too slow or too near to the surface will cause bubbles. so you might wanna increase your the speed of your stroke and also move your nozzle a wee bit back away from the canvas so the high pressure air doesnt kick up bubbles on the surface.

[bill t.]

I tried all the variations.  I think the heavy deposit in that area is mainly from trying to shoot short bursts from a couple feet away to create drops to pop the bubbles.  Only kinda worked.

I'm too lazy for anything fancy, I just like stuff that works with a minimum of steps and which is reasonably forgiving of nominal process variation.  Timeless is off my speed dial for the time being.

[mikev1]

I tried that as well Bill, didn't really work.  What I'm finding with the Timeless is that even if I get the bubbles right away they still leave a mark.

Anyway it has been a long couple of days.  I was up until 3 am yesterday working on a large order and it is almost 1 am today and nowhere near done.

I've had a number of flaws in the Lyve canvas as well which has meant even more reprints.  Just not my week I guess.

Even though I am not the biggest fan of the Epson Premium Matte Canvas I never get flaws in the canvas.  I must have used north of 25+ rolls of it last year.  I probably had a few but nothing really comes to mind.  The Epson Satin caused me a lot of grief but I try to avoid it unless a customer really wants it.

I am trying a roll of the new Epson Exhibition Matte Canvas which I heard is replacing the Premium and so far so good.  But I haven't printed enough of it yet to get a sense of how many "surprises" it may contain.  It definitely is different from the premium not just a name change.

Mike

[bill t.]

Would like to hear your thoughts on Exhibition Matte down the road a bit.

I tried a few rolls of Lyve bought at different times and they all had isolated weave errors bad enough to reject prints, not to mention head swipes.

Things like that seem to come and go for particular brands.  There are periods with excellent QC, then suddenly something goes sour.  Lexjet SSMC had a few bad months a while back, but all the stuff I have bought in the last few months has been near perfect, except for one 44" with a short bad section at the end.  I think Epson is the only media manufacturer I have used extensively that never gave me a QC headache.

Well anyway, I just this morning dragged the corner of a piece of Gatorfoam across an uncoated 30 x 66 print.  So I face internal problems at least as unpredictable as my media manufacturers.

[dgberg]

You would think I would walk a real tightrope here with Lexjet and Breathing Color both sponsoring my canvas printing and mounting workshops.
But a spades a spade.
I use canvas from both manufacturers with good to excellent results. Just an ocassional bump in the road. I recently had a build up of small adhesive drops of some sort on a 36" roll of Chromatta White.
Did not see them until I sprayed the varnish.(That made me real happy,grrr.) The entire roll was replaced by Breathing Color that week. (Thanks Brian) Other then that one incident and several flaking issues I am quite happy.
I started out 3 years ago spraying with Glamor II and never had any real issues. Mixing is a pain. (Mixing different sheens together with water. )
I have spent 25 hours a week in my cabinetry firms spray booth for 22 years and could propably spray any product you put in front of me. (Timeless has been my biggest challenge.)
After a half dozen attempts I got the Timeless process down pretty good. The very light misted coats are the trick. That porous canvas has air trapped between the fibers. When you coat it too heavy and the air tries to escape you get bubbles. Anything more then misted seal coats and you will get bubbles. I do not know what they changed in the formula that caused this but am sure the good folks at BC are working on it.
As a professional finisher even I do not have the patience to deal with it so I know other users will probably struggle with this product. For the time being my Timeless sits on the shelf just like Mr. Bills.
So back to Glamor II for my gallery wraps and Clearstar FA for the canvas mounted to Dibond and gatorboard.

[Colorwave]

I haven't been with Breathing Color long enough to know, but how long did it take to get to Glamour II from Glamour I?  They admit that they chose drying speed over leveling agents when they formulated Timeless.  Perhaps with enough feedback, Timeless II may be in the cards?

[ftbt]

Wow, those bubbles don't look good. I have been spraying Glamour 2 (1/3 distilled water / 2/3 laminate) with a Wagner Control Max with good success, and I was about to give Timeless a try (it is on sale at BC until May 8th.). However, based upon the various comments and after looking at the bubbles, I think I will pass on Timeless ... for the time-being.