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Author Topic: Leica s2. How does the files compare to the best digital backs?  (Read 5191 times)

henrikfoto

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I would be interested in a comparrison between the digital backs and Leica S2.

Have anyone tried to compare?

Henrik
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Doug Peterson

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Re: Leica s2. How does the files compare to the best digital backs?
« Reply #1 on: May 04, 2011, 11:24:52 am »

http://www.captureintegration.com/tests/leica/ (not a direct comparison but still useful).

Image quality wise: Lenses are great (no surprise here). Sharpness is great. Some blooming issues in highlights requiring fixing in post. No dedicated processing software holds it back a bit IMO. Long exposures and high ISO are so-so, but depends of course on which back you are comparing to.

Handling/Usability/Price/System-Flexibility: whole other topic full of advantages and disadvantages.

Doug Peterson (e-mail Me)
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Ed Jack

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Re: Leica s2. How does the files compare to the best digital backs?
« Reply #2 on: May 04, 2011, 12:40:26 pm »

I would be interested in a comparrison between the digital backs and Leica S2.

Have anyone tried to compare?

Henrik

When you buy into the Leica you are basically getting access to some pretty amazing glass and an integrated system. The sensor in itself is pretty mid-level by today's standards (if comparing to 80Mp backs), in that sense that you could spend the $40K or whatever it is on a used P65+ and even a used MF body and a couple of lenses from Mamiya or somebody and ofcourse that set up would give better picture quality (than the Leica), but it would not be in a nice small and relatively light package you can chuck over your shoulder  :P. If you are a fashion shooter the Leica is the ulimate. If you are a landscape purist, you can't go wrong with a P65+ or one of the newer backs!
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Doug Peterson

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Re: Leica s2. How does the files compare to the best digital backs?
« Reply #3 on: May 04, 2011, 01:32:07 pm »

If you are a fashion shooter the Leica is the ulimate. If you are a landscape purist, you can't go wrong with a P65+ or one of the newer backs!

The contrary view to the fashion comment most of the fashion shooters that we work with here in Miami want to be able to shoot tethered and the tethered performance of the S2, while strongly improved since it's initial launch, is just not in the same league as any of the Phase, Leaf, or Hassy products in the 30-40mp range and many faster (frame rate) fashion shooters will still consider it too slow when shooting bursts of images.

The contrary view for the landscape comment would be that the s2 does feature excellent weather proofing (though in three years we've only had two incidents of water/weather damage to a customer's digital back and one of them was dropped fully submerged in the ocean), better battery life, and the best 35mm SLR lens I've seen (still can't compete with a Schneider/Rodenstock 35mm but that's a different beast altogether).

I guess I'm in a contrary mood today :-).

Doug Peterson (e-mail Me)
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Ed Jack

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Re: Leica s2. How does the files compare to the best digital backs?
« Reply #4 on: May 05, 2011, 04:33:47 am »

All good points, the leica is a neat system for sure, but if you don't mind "the modular fudge" and money is an issue, then the Aptus 10/12 or Phase one P65 and even P45+ is likely to be more rewarding if you are a big print addict!! :o
Also it is suprising, if you are really tight on the money how many  P65+ or P45+ and Aptus backs are availble for sale used or ex-demo at good prices. The new displaces the old, but in this case the "old" are still likely enough for many people for many,many years of top end shooting!

The contrary view to the fashion comment most of the fashion shooters that we work with here in Miami want to be able to shoot tethered and the tethered performance of the S2, while strongly improved since it's initial launch, is just not in the same league as any of the Phase, Leaf, or Hassy products in the 30-40mp range and many faster (frame rate) fashion shooters will still consider it too slow when shooting bursts of images.

The contrary view for the landscape comment would be that the s2 does feature excellent weather proofing (though in three years we've only had two incidents of water/weather damage to a customer's digital back and one of them was dropped fully submerged in the ocean), better battery life, and the best 35mm SLR lens I've seen (still can't compete with a Schneider/Rodenstock 35mm but that's a different beast altogether).

I guess I'm in a contrary mood today :-).

Doug Peterson (e-mail Me)
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Guy Mancuso

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Re: Leica s2. How does the files compare to the best digital backs?
« Reply #5 on: May 05, 2011, 09:25:29 am »

No question about the P40+ could last me many more years of satisfaction with my files. I'm only buying the IQ 140 more for the tech since the sensor is identical. The mental wallet debate is the money but for me I think it is worth it. I shot the IQ 180 twice now and the second time around quite a bit and just really liked the functionality better and more important confirmation of what I shot i can see before moving off to something else.
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ndevlin

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Re: Leica s2. How does the files compare to the best digital backs?
« Reply #6 on: May 10, 2011, 08:49:57 pm »

In comparison to other 40MP files, they're lovely, but I have not seen them to be obviously superior (the lenses are superior wide-open to everything else in the slr world). The real question is whether the focal lengths work for you and whether you like the camera itself. The bigger sensors have higher res, obviously. That's really all the difference. None of these are great high ISO tools (except the Phase with Sensor Plus, which radically reduces res).

The tethering issue is a big one. Most pros outside landscape and architecture want it occasionally, and the S2 is second-best on this.

If the camera is within your means, give it a try. It is a beautiful machine, just not right for everyone.

- N.
« Last Edit: May 15, 2011, 09:12:43 am by ndevlin »
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Nick Devlin   @onelittlecamera        ww

tsjanik

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Re: Leica s2. How does the files compare to the best digital backs?
« Reply #7 on: May 10, 2011, 10:17:12 pm »

Nick:

You indicated your intent to compare the S2 and 645D.  Any chance that might appear in the near future?

Best,

Tom
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Nick Rains

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Re: Leica s2. How does the files compare to the best digital backs?
« Reply #8 on: May 13, 2011, 07:50:32 pm »

Long exposures and high ISO are so-so, but depends of course on which back you are comparing to.

Doug Peterson (e-mail Me)
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I think you are being a bit harsh on the long exposures and high ISO side of things. I am getting excellent results with both.

120 sec exposure are almost noiseless and even at ISO640 I can make 20"x30" prints which show zero noise. I would call it at least as good as any other MFDB, certainly not "so-so".

I have some exhibition prints to make today from a recent trip to New Guinea, some of the shots in the rainforest at ISO640 using the 120mm Macro hand held at f2.8 are remarkable. A colleague using a P65+ on a Phase body was not able to come close - under those circumstances. For pure resolution, sure, the bigger sensors dominate, but you still have to get a sharp image in the first place, and IMHO, the S2 makes it that much easier. Better a sharp 40MP image than a soft 80Mp image.
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Nick Rains
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DaveCurtis

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Re: Leica s2. How does the files compare to the best digital backs?
« Reply #9 on: May 13, 2011, 08:12:55 pm »

How does the new S2 lens compare to the latest Schneider/Rodenstock digital lens ?

Has anyone compared them?
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Nick Rains

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Re: Leica s2. How does the files compare to the best digital backs?
« Reply #10 on: May 13, 2011, 08:18:45 pm »

How does the new S2 lens compare to the latest Schneider/Rodenstock digital lens ?

Has anyone compared them?

Not absolutely directly, but I have seen the results from the 23mm on an Alpa/P65+ and compared them to similar images on the S2's 35mm and, at 100%, they seem very similar in a pixel for pixel sense. This is as I'd expect - they are both awesome lenses.

OTOH, none of the Schneider/Rodenstocks are  as sharp at f2.5 as f8 (I know, they don't even have f2.5!)
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Nick Rains
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ndevlin

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Re: Leica s2. How does the files compare to the best digital backs?
« Reply #11 on: May 15, 2011, 09:17:18 am »

Nick:

You indicated your intent to compare the S2 and 645D.  Any chance that might appear in the near future?

Hey Tom,

It seem like every time I get out shooting with someone who has an S2, we end up focused on the photography and never get around to any real head-to-head shooting. Given how tight the margins are between these cameras, I would be loathe draw IQ comparisons from casual shooting.

I still hope to do this sometime soon.

- N.
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Nick Devlin   @onelittlecamera        ww

tsjanik

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Re: Leica s2. How does the files compare to the best digital backs?
« Reply #12 on: May 15, 2011, 10:15:47 pm »


.........It seem like every time I get out shooting with someone who has an S2, we end up focused on the photography and never get around to any real head-to-head shooting.

Terrific.  Many of us spend too much time pixel peeping rather than taking photographs.  Nonetheless, if you write it, I’ll read it.
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happyman

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Re: Leica s2. How does the files compare to the best digital backs?
« Reply #13 on: May 16, 2011, 11:53:27 am »

I thought it was time to upgrade my H3D39 so i tested the S2 with 35/70/120 last weekend. A few outdoor shots, some houses, garden, my daughters, my cat, some studio product shots. I will post no samples because it is my test and conclusion and i don´t like to discuss about details that much.

Great camera, like the design, sound and handling. But not enough to sell the H3D39. HCD 28 with DAC looks better to me than the 35 Leica lens. Leica 70 beats the HC 80, no question. Both 120 macros are equal for my taste with the Leica having a bit more contrast and sharpness.

I must say that i am addicted to the Hasselblad look, for me it is warm and rich all the time. The Leica S2 look is not like the look i loved with my M8, it is more M9, cooler, more neutral. It reminds me of the Phase P25 i had for a while. Sure, some will say i could tweak tones to my taste.
No, i can´t. Or better, i don´t like to tweak anymore. It is a personal thing. That is what a camera should be. And i am sure some will love the S2 the way i love my H3D39.

jørn
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paulmoorestudio

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Re: Leica s2. How does the files compare to the best digital backs?
« Reply #14 on: May 16, 2011, 12:41:41 pm »

Since when do cameras do the "tweaking"? I find this attitude in someone shooting medium format digital shocking.. maybe you are truly a newbie.. an after-film newbie, but the history of photography is that of creative control in the hands of the photographer.. you pick the look, please don't tell me you have this fine equipment and are shooting and relying on jpegs?
is this what our craft has become?  It is your camera and your vision, shoot how you want but please don't bother posting a comparison of how two brilliant camera systems in jpeg mode, this "oldie" is not too interested in preset factory modes.. the digital revolution gave us, the creators of images, the ability to define our looks, not rely on what kodak or fuji thought was the right characteristic curve, iso, etc.
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happyman

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Re: Leica s2. How does the files compare to the best digital backs?
« Reply #15 on: May 16, 2011, 01:37:26 pm »

paul...i started 1994 with Kodak DCS, presented their digital camera the same year at photokina. Four years later i did the same for Sinar / Scitex Leaf. I am not a newbie.

Maybe i spell something wrong. Tweaking from a file that has a lot of what i like is what i am after. There is a difference in the files and Hasselblad is what i prefer to start from.
Did i wrote about a tweaking camera? Did i mentioned jpg? What do you read what i don´t wrote? I am glad you read that it is my opinion.

All i want to do is to answer to the topic question: How does the files compare...

Peace
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feppe

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Re: Leica s2. How does the files compare to the best digital backs?
« Reply #16 on: May 16, 2011, 01:51:30 pm »

Since when do cameras do the "tweaking"? I find this attitude in someone shooting medium format digital shocking.. maybe you are truly a newbie.. an after-film newbie, but the history of photography is that of creative control in the hands of the photographer.. you pick the look, please don't tell me you have this fine equipment and are shooting and relying on jpegs?
is this what our craft has become?  It is your camera and your vision, shoot how you want but please don't bother posting a comparison of how two brilliant camera systems in jpeg mode, this "oldie" is not too interested in preset factory modes.. the digital revolution gave us, the creators of images, the ability to define our looks, not rely on what kodak or fuji thought was the right characteristic curve, iso, etc.

That's an unfair generalization and attack. Several generations of photographers were perfectly happy with chromes, which allow no tweaking. Even today many respected wedding and PJ photographers shoot JPEG. For some of us capturing the photo is where "the look" is found, not analog/digital darkroom.

paulmoorestudio

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Re: Leica s2. How does the files compare to the best digital backs?
« Reply #17 on: May 16, 2011, 02:26:56 pm »

1. to happyman.. I hope you find the comparison informative for your needs.. because you said that hasselblad " is warm and rich all the time" it sounded like you were taking some preset mode / jpeg  from the camera directly.. I have always used the hasselblad software set neutral and flat as possible for my work, so I miss understood you. 
2.  to feppe, calling my post an "attack" is a stretch.. and you may be mis reading as poorly as I did.  During my film days I knew of no professional photographers that shot chromes and did not use the full extent of control that the process allowed.. like rushed lead snips @ pushed 3/8, or tail snips @ -1/2 stop pulled processing.. and in bw.. well that is obvious..it was manipulated in processing and and printing.. again I personally knew nobody doing different.. maybe where you lived and worked?
3. This is the realm of personal opinion.. all of it.  you may like D-76 and I think Rodinal is better..do you want to be in a dialogue about contrasting opinions or a club where we all shake our heads at the same idea?  I am passionate about the medium I have spent a lifetime with.. I am entitled to my opinion about the medium, I stated that if others want to shoot JPGS that is up to them but I stand by my opinion that shooting JPGs with either the 2 cameras mentioned is not getting what these cameras can do.  I am old enough and experienced enough to express my distaste for the general trend in photography to faster, simpler workflow.. auto-this auto-that, JPGs are auto-processing. Sure they are fine for 95% of what is "needed" and fit the run-n-gun dslr world very nicely.. hell I bet you can shoot 1000 shots per day with this combo.. but this is not giving us better images. 
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feppe

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Re: Leica s2. How does the files compare to the best digital backs?
« Reply #18 on: May 16, 2011, 02:35:02 pm »

2.  to feppe, calling my post an "attack" is a stretch.. and you may be mis reading as poorly as I did.  During my film days I knew of no professional photographers that shot chromes and did not use the full extent of control that the process allowed.. like rushed lead snips @ pushed 3/8, or tail snips @ -1/2 stop pulled processing.. and in bw.. well that is obvious..it was manipulated in processing and and printing.. again I personally knew nobody doing different.. maybe where you lived and worked?

Emphasis on what's key: (very limited) control of chromes is on a whole different level than that of bw, or especially digital.

Fully agree on using MFDBs with JPEG being largely a waste, though. I think shooting JPEG with digital is a waste in most cases, but there are exceptions where post-processing is not feasible or even allowed.

There's still a certain allure in the simplicity of chrome/JPEG shooting with the what-you-shoot-is-what-you-get -results.
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