No Epson purchases to Canada from US

[GeraldB]

I was surprised today to learn from IT Supplies in Illinois from whom I usually buy my ink that Epson has stopped them from selling into Canada. Anyone else in Canada finding this problem? Is Canon doing the same thing?

[Mark D Segal]

I was surprised today to learn from IT Supplies in Illinois from whom I usually buy my ink that Epson has stopped them from selling into Canada. Anyone else in Canada finding this problem? Is Canon doing the same thing?

I'm not specialized in competition law, but based on some background I do have in relevant areas, I would question the legality of this practice under the competition laws of Canada, the USA and the provisions of NAFTA. It may be useful to complain to the appropriate authorities in both countries and ask for an opinion and if warranted an investigation.

[GeraldB]

Mark I wouldn't really know where to begin, but it does seem to be quite a counter intuitive action.

[Mark D Segal]

The point is that unless it's illegal there's nothing one can do about it, and the only way to find out about its legality, without spending megabucks hiring an international trade lawyer, is to get onto the government websites, read relevant clauses of the competition laws, and find out where to lodge complaints. The information is there for those who have the time to drill down to it. Just now I don't.

[Conner999]

Sadly is the same with B&H.  Infuriating given the @#$% prices we pay here vs. US for Epson ink and paper - and that's with a C$ nicely above par.  Don't know if illegal or not, but it's doing their customers an 'in your face' disservice to the betterment of their wholesalers/dealers (most of whom here in Canada still behave as if internet commerce is a passing fad).

It's also not doing a whole lot to retain customer loyalty vs Canon & HP (that said, don't know if they have same BS restrictions, but if they don't...).

I like some choice Epson papers, but am now doing some more experimentation for non-Epson selections. Can't do much about the inks (for now), but I am due for another printer very soon and WILL seriously look outside Epson in part because of this policy.  Have enough challenges to face as a photog, don't need to fight my printer manufacturer for fair pricing as well.

Edit: Having checked B&H's website, it does not appear that HP or Canon have the same policies.

[Mark D Segal]

Sadly is the same with B&H.  Infuriating given the @#$% prices we pay here vs. US for Epson ink and paper - and that's with a C$ nicely above par.  Don't know if illegal or not, but it's doing their customers an 'in your face' disservice to the betterment of their wholesalers/dealers (most of whom here in Canada still behave as if internet commerce is a passing fad).

It's also not doing a whole lot to retain customer loyalty vs Canon & HP (that said, don't know if they have same BS restrictions, but if they don't...).

I like some choice Epson papers, but am now doing some more experimentation for non-Epson selections. Can't do much about the inks (for now), but I am due for another printer very soon and WILL seriously look outside Epson in part because of this policy.  Have enough challenges to face as a photog, don't need to fight my printer manufacturer for fair pricing as well.

Edit: Having checked B&H's website, it does not appear that HP or Canon have the same policies.

While I would still like to see a legal challenge to the restrictive trade practices involved, from the price perspective, I don't know what you're complaining about. For example, a 200ml Epson 4900 ink cartridge is USD 99.95 at B&H, and CAD 99.38 at CCBC here in Toronto, with the availability of gradually discounted prices related to the accumulated value of your business with them. Prices cannot be adjusted in real time for minuscule movements of the exchange rate. Maybe not every ink cartridge Epson provides is as competitively priced, but sampling several it seems on the whole fairly close. In fact, 4800 110 ml is cheaper at CCBC than at B&H.

[Conner999]

No idea who CCBC is and won't go thru an item by item list but:

Vistek: 17x22 Hot press, C$130 B&H US$103
Vistek: 13x19 Hot press: C$85  B&H $61

Vistek 3800 Ink cart: C$70 B&H US$45 (normally US$59)
Vistek Canon IPF 6300 B&H: $~2800,  Vistek or Henry's (an eye-popping) ~C$4700

Henry's offers nice shipping prices, but offers less in-stock on non-consumer papers than Vistek. Vistek used to be decent re: shipping, but now just nasty.
B&H with new Purolator service to Canada is nice, fast and cheap.  

Now, if you know of a reputable place where CDNs can acquire Epson ink and paper (or apparently Canon printers) at comparable prices, please do share.

Edit - Checked out CCBC and while (obviously) have no experience with them and have yet to check their shipping costs, prices are better than the two large brick and mortar stores in Canada but (paper selection) currently more limited.  

That said at C$58 for say a 3800 ink cart, I'd still be better off buying from B&H given their current sale (which I did in past before Epson, I assume, clamped down) on 3800 ink. In short, I should have the option to shop where I want to, even if were at same price, w/o artificial barriers.

As for FX. This price deltas from two big CDN dealers vs US has been consistent for years. Some gear has come down to par to even better due to soaring CDN vs US$ such as say Nikon bodies, but some gear remains at stupid levels (Manfrotto odds and sodds always give me a chuckle) in this age of on-line commerce.

People blame retailers & retailers blame wholesalers; but if the the retailers don't have the backbone (or even desire) to change some wholesaler behaviours to protect their business base from US-sourced erosion, that isn't my problem to subsidize - I vote with my wallet.

[mikev1]

Are you sure BH doesn't ship Epson products to Canada?  Within the last two weeks I had to order some Epson paper from them as I couldn't find any locally.

www.shopbot.ca is your friend. Or try www.ca.buy.com

It rarely makes sense to by Epson Products from the US (other than the big printers).  There are lots of drop shippers within Canada such as www.pc-canada.com or Grey-Tech http://www.ecsrv.com/ that simply take your order and pass it on to a wholesaler or manufacturer.  I have ordered $10,000+ worth of product from these places and have never had a problem.  I generally buy several 44" rolls etc at once so the shipping of around $12.99 is nothing.

Vistek sells the 700ml carts for the 9900 at $270.  www.pc-canada.com has them for $215 + $12.99 shipping

[Mark D Segal]

No idea who CCBC is and won't go thru an item by item list but:

Vistek: 17x22 Hot press, C$130 B&H US$103
Vistek: 13x19 Hot press: C$85  B&H $61

Vistek 3800 Ink cart: C$70 B&H US$45 (normally US$59)
Vistek Canon IPF 6300 B&H: $~2800,  Vistek or Henry's (an eye-popping) ~C$4700

Henry's offers nice shipping prices, but offers less in-stock on non-consumer papers than Vistek. Vistek used to be decent re: shipping, but now just nasty.
B&H with new Purolator service to Canada is nice, fast and cheap.  

Now, if you know of a reputable place where CDNs can acquire Epson ink and paper (or apparently Canon printers) at comparable prices, please do share.

Edit - Checked out CCBC and while (obviously) have no experience with them and have yet to check their shipping costs, prices are better than the two large brick and mortar stores in Canada but (paper selection) currently more limited.  

That said at C$58 for say a 3800 ink cart, I'd still be better off buying from B&H given their current sale (which I did in past before Epson, I assume, clamped down) on 3800 ink. In short, I should have the option to shop where I want to, even if were at same price, w/o artificial barriers.

As for FX. This price deltas from two big CDN dealers vs US has been consistent for years. Some gear has come down to par to even better due to soaring CDN vs US$ such as say Nikon bodies, but some gear remains at stupid levels (Manfrotto odds and sodds always give me a chuckle) in this age of on-line commerce.

People blame retailers & retailers blame wholesalers; but if the the retailers don't have the backbone (or even desire) to change some wholesaler behaviours to protect their business base from US-sourced erosion, that isn't my problem to subsidize - I vote with my wallet.

As I implied, price comparisons do vary from product to product. You'll find we can do better, equal or worse in Toronto than in the USA depending on the item. But you have to shop competitively. Sometimes Vistek is competitive, sometimes they are not - all depends.

Yes, I'm well aware of persistent price deltas. It's been an issue ever since I can remember growing up in the 1940s and 1950s when the CAD was at least on par with the USD and we used to treck to NYC regularly for shopping. Part of it is due to the sheer difference of market size. I'm informed that several large US retailers combined do more business per year in certain photographic consumables and hardware than occurs in the whole of Canada. So overheads are higher here. Another factor is that this market is less competitive at the wholesale level simply because we are about 1/11th the size of the US market and there is less room for as many outlets. Another factor is that manufacturers seem to be able to enforce restrictive trade practices to help assure the viability of their local distribution arrangements. So some of this is inevitable, but I keep coming back to the importance of having rules in place that make the playing-field as level as it can be. No more than that can be done in a market economy, and my persistent question is whether it is being done.

[GeraldB]

IT Supplies tells me that they received letters from Epson, Canon and HP, all withing the last few weeks. So not only does it seem contrary to NAFTA it smacks of collusion.

[Mark D Segal]

Certain kinds of collusion are also illegal according to competition laws in both countries, but it is notoriously difficult to prove and enforce - recall, circumstantial evidence is not determinative in our justice systems.

[FrankG]

A set of 3880 carts is well over $500 at Vistek and well under $400 from Atlex.
Or individually they're $70 at Vistek, $58 at CCBC and $45 at B&H and Atlex.
That's right B&H wont supply Canada due to 'manufacturers restrictions'

[FrankG]

the link you posted to grey tech www.ecsrv.com is broken but grey tech have another website here http://www.greytech.com/ - same place ?

[mikev1]

Yes that is the same place.  For these types of websites it is usually best to search by the manufacturer product number.

[Light Seeker]

I think the other thing going on is the need for a corporation to fund it's local, country-specific, operation. We typically view a company like Canon (for example) globally, and question some of their decisions based on that perspective. However, I imagine that Canon Canada is a separate cost-centre within Canon globally, and that it has a requirement to hit a certain profitability. A sale made in the US and shipped to Canada benefits Canon US and Canon globally, but not Canon Canada. That may be driving the letters that have been mentioned.

Having said all of that I'm extremely frustrated with how much more Canadian sold product can cost. I realize there are different economies of scale, given our population, that impact this. However, I have a feeling that the much could be done to make the country-specific operation more efficient and less expensive, lowering our local cost.

Terry.

[Mark D Segal]

That's not what's going on with the distribution of Epson inks and papers. Epson does no distribution in Canada. It's handled by local third-party distributors.

[Light Seeker]

Perhaps that's why there is typically a smaller gap between US and Canadian prices for Epson large format printers, whereas Canon printers can be substantially more.

Terry.

[Randy Carone]

Epson has rules for resellers and one of them is that US resellers will not ship (and compete) with Canada's resellers. Though Epson may not have direct distribution in Canada they have a dealer network that would have difficulty competing with higher volume US resellers. US resellers would be the ones who would have to challenge the Distribution 'rules' and, apparently, there is no motivation to do so. I suppose end-users in Canada could challenge the 'rule' but they will need to have deep pockets. If a US authorized reseller decides to challenge the rules that they have agreed to in the original contract, Epson could pull their products from the dealer until the case is settled, during which time the reseller would not be able to continue to offer Epson products and would, no doubt, sour the relationship with Epson. Risky business decision.

[FrankG]

Unless....it's a big place like B&H. I'm sure Epson would not want to pull their ink off B&H's shelves. For example, B&H offer Canon 'Import" & Canon 'USA' lenses etc

[Randy Carone]

What is B&H's motivation to challenge Epson (Canon, etc.)? Would their goal be to become the Wal-Mart of the inkjet world? In the long run, do you think it would benefit customer? or B&H, once they have crushed Canada's distribution channels?

A lot of questions. Tough answers.