Printing Mystery - using CS5 to R2400 - file changes not printing?

[lausanne]

I'm more painter than photographer so I tend to forget printing processes between efforts.  My R2400 is old but like new so I don't think this is an equipment issue.

Maybe one of you can help me think this one through:

I'm trying to make prints from photos I've taken of some paintings.  I'm working from a laptop so color management consists of soft proofing and printing little test strips.

I've got a file that prints OK but the sky is a bit dull and some other colors over saturated.

So, I make some level and hue/sat changes in CS5 - then print the new version.  But the new print looks EXACTLY like the first print.  It doesn't seem like my changes - all fairly significant, not just tiny, microscopic changes - aren't somehow communicating with the printer.  I've even made the changes, saved as a new file, closed, opened the new file and printed from there.  New print still looks EXACTLY like the old.  I can see no change at all.

What am I missing?  This image is not all that saturated so I don't think I'm bumping into a gamut issue.

[Mark D Segal]

I'm more painter than photographer so I tend to forget printing processes between efforts.  My R2400 is old but like new so I don't think this is an equipment issue.

Maybe one of you can help me think this one through:

I'm trying to make prints from photos I've taken of some paintings.  I'm working from a laptop so color management consists of soft proofing and printing little test strips.

I've got a file that prints OK but the sky is a bit dull and some other colors over saturated.

So, I make some level and hue/sat changes in CS5 - then print the new version.  But the new print looks EXACTLY like the first print.  It doesn't seem like my changes - all fairly significant, not just tiny, microscopic changes - aren't somehow communicating with the printer.  I've even made the changes, saved as a new file, closed, opened the new file and printed from there.  New print still looks EXACTLY like the old.  I can see no change at all.

What am I missing?  This image is not all that saturated so I don't think I'm bumping into a gamut issue.

What colour space are your images in? If you are using an sRGB working space it's possible that the whole range of changes you are making are out of the working space gamut, hence you aren't see the effect. What paper are you printing on? Some papers have more DMax and gamut than others. What is the extent of changes you are making? Within a few levels, they would hardly be noticeable on many papers. Have you turned on "gamut warning" in Photoshop to see for sure whether you aren't running into gamut issues with your combination of paper and working space/

[lausanne]

Hi Mark, Thanks for the reply.

Working through your questions now:

Looks like this file is in ProPhoto - (I'm checking this by opening the "Convert to Profile..." menu and it says there "Source Profile" is ProPhoto.)

Now I'm looking again and the source now says Adobe RGB -   (I get VERY confused about "Color Settings", "Assign Color" and "Convert to Profile..." menus.  Which one controls this image?  (argh!)  I guess that's a different question.

Looking at it via "Convert to Profile..." it looks correct on in the Adobe RGB.  But I thought I had my space set to ProPhoto.  No clue why the change.  And so, who knows what it was in yesterday.

Now I've checked "Gamut warning" under View while image is and i don't see anything happening to the image - meaning all is in gamut? -

Okay, Paper is Fine Art Velvet.

Changes were pretty significant - not subtle - not sure how else to describe them.

At the very least I will try to reprint this making sure of the color space first.  Seems like Adobe RGB would be sufficient but maybe it was in sRGB.  Oy.

[Mark D Segal]

Hi Mark, Thanks for the reply.

Working through your questions now:

Looks like this file is in ProPhoto - (I'm checking this by opening the "Convert to Profile..." menu and it says there "Source Profile" is ProPhoto.)

Now I'm looking again and the source now says Adobe RGB -   (I get VERY confused about "Color Settings", "Assign Color" and "Convert to Profile..." menus.  Which one controls this image?  (argh!)  I guess that's a different question.

Looking at it via "Convert to Profile..." it looks correct on in the Adobe RGB.  But I thought I had my space set to ProPhoto.  No clue why the change.  And so, who knows what it was in yesterday.

Now I've checked "Gamut warning" under View while image is and i don't see anything happening to the image - meaning all is in gamut? -

Okay, Paper is Fine Art Velvet.

Changes were pretty significant - not subtle - not sure how else to describe them.

At the very least I will try to reprint this making sure of the color space first.  Seems like Adobe RGB would be sufficient but maybe it was in sRGB.  Oy.

Convert to Profile Source Profile tells you where the image now is. This is the information you need for present purposes.
Color Settings in the edit menu allows you to set your default working spaces, set the default decision when confronted with a mismatch (Preserve embedded is a good starting point - you can always change it), and most importantly, to turn on warnings when there are profile mismatches.
The Gamut Warning will only tell you whether colours are out of gamut of the working space, which will likely be considerably wider than printer gamut with the paper you are using. This latter is most likely the limiting factor in your workflow. Have you actually made the corrections under softproof for that paper and not seen any difference on your display? If you do see a substantial difference before and after the image edits UNDER SOFTPROOF WITH VELVET FINE ART profile and this difference does not appear on prints made with and without those same corrections, something else is happening besides gamut issues. The other end of the equation is the colour management of the laptop display. What you are seeing on the display may not be a reliable indicator of what's happening to the file or the print.

[lausanne]

Thank you, thank you, Mark.

I am going to print out your words and tape them above the printer for the color space menu info - and work through this again this weekend.   I'll make sure I'm soft proofing correctly etc. too.

(not at studio now - currently at library about to take one of those horrid online "pre-employment tests" - oh joy.)

[lausanne]

Okay, Reporting Back:

I sorted out the color space so I think I'm clear on that now.

I think my problem was that in the Custom Proof menu "Simulate Paper Color" was not checked.  Boy did that make a difference on the screen.

The rest of it, I think, is just the headache of trying to do this from a 15" laptop screen.  (I borrowed a color calibrating gizmo from a friend recently and that was a disaster - major magenta shift).  So, I did a bunch of test strips and I think I finally got about as close as I'm going to get. 

Ironically the color issue was more one of over-saturation than out of gamut.  Being a painting, shot with a camera, processed on a laptop, there were still some subtle colors that just won't read but I'm not sure that can be fixed with my current set up.

I did have another weirdness - two or three times my file printed as if some layer/slider had been thrown way off balance.  No clue what it was.  I finally backed up my history a few steps and repeated my intent and reprinted and it looked more like it should again.  Very strange.  I'm was working in psd and then switched to tiff - both are lossless in my understanding so I just can't image why one more adjustment layer seems to whack out the resolution, color and all sorts of strangeness.

Anyway, thanks for the help.  Hopefully an external monitor is in my future or I don't think I'll be able to afford the ink and paper to keep doing so many test strips/prints just to get one printable file.

[Mark D Segal]

Colour management from a laptop is going to end up costing you more than buying a display you can colour-manage properly. Especially if you add the value of your time to all the wasted ink and paper.

[lausanne]

You got that right.  Three hours to produce one printable file and 4-5 sheets of 13x19?  Not for long.

I bet there are 10,000 discussions here about what monitor I should buy.  Oy.