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Author Topic: Red Raw file in Media Composer  (Read 6234 times)

fredjeang

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Red Raw file in Media Composer
« on: April 21, 2011, 05:23:12 pm »

I'm very happy about how MC 5 handles the Red Raw files.

There is a very usefull function called "set source settings". What it does is that it allows you, while your Red Raw file is IN the time line of Media Composer to set color grading in real time and it is Raw so you can work with the histogram on each chanel separately etc...
It acts like if you where in Photoshop and when doing a color correction it "calls" the raw file. This is very impressive I must say because it is non destructive.

So the color grading is made on the source file and applied directly on the timeline, regardless of the reso you are working with.

This is particularly powerfull in the sense that what has been done in Red applications can be linked to the correction at any time.

I'm working on it and it's really damn good and very simple. (what is generaly good is often simple IMO)

I've found this clip that explains much better that topic than with my bad english, it's worth a look if you work with Red and want to get rid-of FCP: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4WHZFWEvlJw&feature=related (start at 2min20)

Watch also how the timeline is automatically adapted between Canon and Red clips with different fps.

Cheers.

« Last Edit: April 21, 2011, 05:24:49 pm by fredjeang »
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Christopher Sanderson

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Re: Red Raw file in Media Composer
« Reply #1 on: April 22, 2011, 09:33:27 am »

OK I'm FCP and jealous. That is a very powerful feature. It seems to imply that a correction can be saved out as a preset and applied to other raw clips - is that the case?

fredjeang

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Re: Red Raw file in Media Composer
« Reply #2 on: April 22, 2011, 10:59:17 am »

OK I'm FCP and jealous. That is a very powerful feature. It seems to imply that a correction can be saved out as a preset and applied to other raw clips - is that the case?
You mean the other way? From MC to the other Raws? Good question!

If I understand well your question, if you apply a correction to a sequence in MC, and then you want to apply the same correction to other Raw files at any time in MC, the answer is yes. Actually you can apply the correction, or preset in all the raw files you want at the same time in the bin.

If you question is about if the preset, or custom grading you did can go out of MC and being applied in Red softwares, my answer is...it seems to...(so you see that I got it not clear at all yet). But if it is one way it should also be the other way.

MC gives the option to correct directly from the time line through a windows very similar to the Photoshop Raw dev, but you can load RLX, RSX or RMD files.

It is possible to load multiple RSX and RLX source settings.

With your source clip (the left source monitor of course gives the visual control), you can export the corrections to ALE (Avid Log Exchange) and XML (Avid FilmScribe). That's why it makes me think that the info is exportable out of MC.

If your clip is actually in the timeline (right monitor) then the corrections have become a choice, but you can always come back to different settings but this time it implies a manipulation.
It means that if you come back to a different setting in the source file, (on your bin) if you didn't give the order to re-correct what's actually in the timeline, your sequence in the time line stays with the settings at the moment you loaded into your timeline. The left monitor will show you one preset (the latest) and the right another preset (the one you choosed as edited) . So you have to give the order to the clip (refresh the sequence) on the timeline to embrasse the latest settings you applied to the source file. That step back is not automatic, it needs a refresh but very easy to do.
That refresh can be done in batch. In fact it makes sense that the edited part is not refreshed automatically.

You can work with different source settings on subclips from a master clip so you are not stucked in just one preset for the same source.
 
I must say that datas exchanges between platforms is a world in itself that I'm not yet familiar to.

I have not tried so far from MC to Red applications, wich makes sense but as you can customise a file can be saved. Is Red cine X able to read what you do in MC ? Mystery. If someone here has the answer it would be great indeed and would save a lot of time and manipulation researchs.
« Last Edit: April 22, 2011, 11:23:36 am by fredjeang »
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Christopher Sanderson

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Re: Red Raw file in Media Composer
« Reply #3 on: April 22, 2011, 12:59:34 pm »

...It is possible to load multiple RSX and RLX source settings...
This is what lead me to the thought that an exported MC setting could be saved out as an RSX/RLX file - just a bunch of text I assume.

fredjeang

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Re: Red Raw file in Media Composer
« Reply #4 on: April 22, 2011, 01:35:59 pm »

I've been trying but it didn't work so far. I can't figure out how to export the Raw corrections out of MC but I'm sure a Red-MC guru would do that in 2 min. Sure it is a stupid thing to know hidden somewhere as always and that of course costs hours and hours until one realise how easy and silly it was...Avid help was not helpfull either.

If I find I post.
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Christopher Sanderson

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Re: Red Raw file in Media Composer
« Reply #5 on: April 22, 2011, 02:10:46 pm »

Let's ask Graeme...

fredjeang

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Re: Red Raw file in Media Composer
« Reply #6 on: April 22, 2011, 05:36:21 pm »

An idea: I wonder if that could be aceived by EDL. I've got both Red cine x and MC opened and thought about that, then checked that Red cine X can upload external EDL. The only little detail is that I'm actually in the MC EDL manager and I feel exactly like a polar bear in the tropics... this is NOT still imagery !!! So many things to learn.
At this stage going by my own is too frustrating because of the amount of knowledge to integrate. I will check if there are Avid and Red seminars in town to progress faster. Man, I flew planes and it was a joke compared to video editing! If we, photographers, think that we belonged to an elite, let's think again! Elite nada, rien de rien...

Another detail I realised. I got a Red Raw file and a Canon file on the same timeline. Working with Raw datas, the chroma denoise for example in MC is really as good as a still raw application but then, you can't do that with the Canon. So it's like one sequence is in another league in terms of controls (I've tried to really do bondageries with the Red file to some extremes and the image bloody stands still) and back to the Canon gets really frustrating because compared to Red it just falls appart like a jpeg.

This Red is really adictive because once you tried it it is hard to accept the limitations of the other systems.


 
« Last Edit: April 22, 2011, 05:55:21 pm by fredjeang »
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fredjeang

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Re: Red Raw file in Media Composer
« Reply #7 on: April 26, 2011, 03:30:46 pm »

...nothing...can't figure out how to make it and been looking for some internet help in Both Red and Avid users without success.

Any guru on the block?
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Pete_G

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Re: Red Raw file in Media Composer
« Reply #8 on: April 27, 2011, 10:05:51 am »

Using an EDL will not help, it doesn't carry that kind of information. I don't have any RED files on my Avid at the moment so can't do a test but AFAIK you can't save RSX
info, you can only import it. Saving an XML via Filmscribe would be the only possible way and whether that would work well with other systems in terms of the Source Settings colour correction is anybody's guess.

The source setting colour correction tools look a little basic to me, fine for a rough grade of a RAW file, but of no real value with regard to final colour correction.

AMA is a decent solution to the increasing problem of dealing with all the various file formats now available but it has it's limitations. I can't imagine being able to do serious editing, with hundreds of hours of footage, on long form productions using RED files linked via AMA. When, on a Panasonic P2 project, I tried this the system slowed down as the edit timeline neared 20 minutes. This has happened to many other users and the workaround is to transcode all the AMA linked footage to DNxHD of choice, then edit. Avid in fact recommend this. The real idea behind AMA, at the moment, is that you can immediately ingest footage into Avid for organisation and approval/correction before transcoding the whole lot to DNxHD, which takes some time, obviously.
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fredjeang

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Re: Red Raw file in Media Composer
« Reply #9 on: April 27, 2011, 12:02:02 pm »

Using an EDL will not help, it doesn't carry that kind of information. I don't have any RED files on my Avid at the moment so can't do a test but AFAIK you can't save RSX
info, you can only import it. Saving an XML via Filmscribe would be the only possible way and whether that would work well with other systems in terms of the Source Settings colour correction is anybody's guess.

The source setting colour correction tools look a little basic to me, fine for a rough grade of a RAW file, but of no real value with regard to final colour correction.

AMA is a decent solution to the increasing problem of dealing with all the various file formats now available but it has it's limitations. I can't imagine being able to do serious editing, with hundreds of hours of footage, on long form productions using RED files linked via AMA. When, on a Panasonic P2 project, I tried this the system slowed down as the edit timeline neared 20 minutes. This has happened to many other users and the workaround is to transcode all the AMA linked footage to DNxHD of choice, then edit. Avid in fact recommend this. The real idea behind AMA, at the moment, is that you can immediately ingest footage into Avid for organisation and approval/correction before transcoding the whole lot to DNxHD, which takes some time, obviously.
Hi Pete.

My idea was also to use Filmscribe but then I have the same doubt about if that would work fine with other systems. Actually so far (but taking into account that with video I'm in the learning process so...) I could not make it work properly. But I really did not try in serious because I was too busy.

The interesting thing about AMA is that you can color correct from the Raw source as it allows to import natively, but you can at any time transcode from the bin to DNxHD after that task acheived. So really, as you can do the Raw grading in batch, even if not in the timeline, you can indeed work with 100 of raws with just color correcting one file of each family (I mean group of footage that has to have the same corrections). Apply the settings to the rest and transcode the all from the bin.
Working with yellow quality I was able to play the Raw without problem. Again, as we can swich instant from yellow to green, I used the green monitor resolution to grade and then swiched to yellow to be able to play smoothly my raw footage.(keep in mind that it puts 4K in real time but it also scale it and motion adapting automatically so yellow screen - I wonder if they choosed that color for the draft refering to yellow snow- is not an option)

AMA makes all sense as we know (unfortunatly) that we won't have a standart and every manufacturer will come with its Raw sauce like in the still industry. So AMA indeed is not a closed solution but will be open for the future format generations. As you wisely pointed, AMA is not the miracle when there is a lot of footage but approval-corrections.

I think it's a pitty to have a Red Raw or Arriraw and then transcode directly in DNxHD. IMO, there are tasks that can be done in MC5 before the transcoding using Raw parameters. I agree, the grading panel is rather simple, in fact as simple as early ACR but it works bloody well. I'm grading otherwise with Autodesk, but it can not correct Raw files. So far, the MC raw panel gives me the main functions I probably will ever use in a raw environment. If after this grading and the transcoding, more fine adjustments where necessary, then it would mean that I've done it bad, well here we are back into familiar land. (and here the grading export will work 100%)

I would really like Avid to do a DNxHD with a simplify quality setting, like jpg. Instead of having different mystical nomenclature, just from 0 to 10 within the same codec.

The fact that we can bypass the RedCine X is IMO a truly good feature. Also, we can load color corrections done in Red by the operator. Importing Raw datas is excellent. The question still remains on the other way after editing choices but it concerns only raw files. It is a pitty we can't export directly RSX, true.

I do not think we have to see it as a non transcoding solution but as a facility to be able to grade in the timeline or at the in-out stage without the image falling appart like an oscur jpeg. I also transcode the AVCHD despite the fact that we can work natively with them. So, still transcoding and transcoding...yes.

I'm not sure I'm in favor of wanting to do everything from the timeline without transcoding. I know this is a fashionable (and powerfull) solution basically Mac Adobe's easyway, but in the end I find that the "old way" to edit is in fact faster and better. No rush to reach the timeline with native footage. In other words, I'm using more and more the left monitor. In that sense I thing that FCP (that I criticized a lot but I'm more aware now that it is not that bad) and Avid are still the most used in the industry for a reason that I now understand. I used to be a great Premiere Pro "fan" because it is an easy software coming from still imagery, we are all familiar with Adobe products and the learning curve is way faster but that also has a price to pay and I've experienced it. As I progress in video, I don't think I could come back to Adobe now after working awhile with Avid.

Maybe, the most important idea that I've learned here from Chris Sanderson concerning video, is that often, a step more now is 10 steps less later.

EDIT: in the video I linked, if you listen carefully, the Avid guy explains that the raw correction you've done in Media Composer will stay if you move the bin to other (Avid?) systems. People present in the presentation seems to think that the export way would be through XML. But indeed we are just guessing there.
 
« Last Edit: April 27, 2011, 02:13:23 pm by fredjeang »
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Pete_G

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Re: Red Raw file in Media Composer
« Reply #10 on: April 28, 2011, 08:17:46 am »

In the Avid documentation it implies that the Source Settings colour correction is saved within the RD3 file, whether these corrections are readable by any other software but Avid is not known.

Why don't you do a test:

Open up a RED raw file in a Media Composer bin and under Source Settings apply a really mad colour correction, something easily identified. Save it, then try to access that same RED file
in whatever other software you have and see if you can recall the Avid colour correction. My guess is it won't work.

As for your other points, RED raw, or any other raw motion picture format is a problem at the moment. Professionally, usually, rushes are prepared for editing by facilities who have the computing power and software to process many hours of footage, and are encoded to an Avid/FCP friendly formats such as DNxHD or ProRes. Editors are concerned with cutting, not with messing around with rushes preparation. NLE software also, especially Avid, is designed more with cutting in mind than colour correction, especially of raw files, what tools do exist within MC are nowhere near as good as the pro colour correctors used way down the pipeline. Before AMA Avid offered a separate application called Metafuze, which could open up RED raw files, apply whatever resizes were necessary and offered colour correction before allowing batch transcoding to DNxHD in prep for editing in Media Composer. The source settings simply allow you to do this within MC.

The post-production pipeline from initial ingest of raw files to an output of a fully edited, fully colour corrected and audio mixed final programme is long and complicated and requires different applications within the workflow at the appropriate stage. Trying to buck this trend, and work out of sequence will be frustrating at least.

I can understand that people working at home, on their own productions, will not have access to the tools I've mentioned. This may change a little in the future, but the fact remains that you should stick to the pro workflow as tightly as you can. For instance, shelling out of Media Composer to do colour correction in Smoke, while you are still editing, is not the best way of doing things.

As I think I mentioned in another post, Blackmagic are going to offer a FREE version of Da Vinci, a widely used pro level colour corrector, very soon. You could investigate this, although it will only work properly at the end of the process, after editing, and it will undoubtedly have a pretty steep leaning curve too. In the end, the modern trend for one operator to do everything within the post-production workflow is idiotic; how many people can be totally proficient at Media Composer/FCP, Pro Tools, Nuke, Flame etc etc etc?
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fredjeang

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Re: Red Raw file in Media Composer
« Reply #11 on: April 28, 2011, 08:54:34 am »

Why don't you do a test:

Open up a RED raw file in a Media Composer bin and under Source Settings apply a really mad colour correction, something easily identified. Save it, then try to access that same RED file
in whatever other software you have and see if you can recall the Avid colour correction. My guess is it won't work.

Pete, I've done exactly that test the very first day, and guess what? you're guessing well. It does not work.

As from the other points, I totally agree with all your lines. There is too much specialisations that requires really high skills and experience to be managed properly by one operator.

In the grading there is still that I see a lot of Unix platforms. Things are changing and changing fast. I would definately not use Smoke while still editing. I've never done that way. Just that with the Raw file "ideas" of different workflow came in my mind.
« Last Edit: April 28, 2011, 09:01:42 am by fredjeang »
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bcooter

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Re: Red Raw file in Media Composer
« Reply #12 on: April 28, 2011, 01:30:34 pm »

There is too much specialisations that requires really high skills and experience to be managed properly by one operator.


Fred,

There is a reason that Television and Cinema have tried and true workflows.  Obviously a wrench  has been thrown into the gears with cheaper NLE's like FCP and the lower price of AVID, and obviously the 5d/7d has brought medium quality motion imagery to the masses, (the RED can be included in this), still there is a reason that most workflows are first you produce dailies, secondly the editor cuts to the script with proxy files and script/director/client changes, third once the final cut is signed off,  color correction, titles and effects are outsrourced, fourth inserted into the edit and outputted to the client''s or medium's standards.

That is the old way and it works.

The new standard is now all over the place, unless your working on a episodic television project that is closed loop and even then those are shot on RED at 2k, 3k, 4k, JVC's at 2k, secondary cameras like the 7d at 2k   . . . you get my drift.

When most still photographers move or add motion imagery, they are not completely diving into the full post production process.   They use their macpros, and shoot a 5d/7d purpose it out in something that FCP will read and start cutting.

They obviously don't have a handle on color, because it seems that for every piece I see in color I see two black and white videos, because I guess black and white is an easy color to manage out of a precooked file.

Though you can take a macpro to virtually any price you want, a full fledged PC based AVID system is $15,000 at a starting point and that doesn't include any real effects software, just a basic editing machine, a NLE editor like AVID and a few terabytes of fast drives.

And even with that your not fully prepared to cut 4k RED files with any speed especially if you attempt to  filter or color correct on the timeline.  

Given this, there is no doubt in my mind that the standard for shooting and editing in a few years will be 4k.

Just like in still photography, nobody really needs an 80mpx still camera output but if the photographer buys 80mpx, he/she will deliver 80mpx.   The same with motion imagery.  If you can shoot 4k, you'll probably start cutting in 4k.

So right now there are ways to work in 4k, you can obviously color correct prior to editing, you can do a certain amount of effects and titling in the NLE's though that is usually overkill and working in ways that are redundant.

All of this depends on client, market and most importantly budget.  One editorial house I know in the midwest is full busy with their editors though their DaVinci's suites are empty.  That leads me to believe that color correction is being laid on the editor, along with simple titling and effects and probably due to budget.

In LA editorial houses have closed down by the block, but the one's that have survived, even thrived are now mobile and edit, correct and output as the filming is happening. (I know this sounds impossible, but they are doing it).

I'm an inch away to moving our studios to  PC boxes  that are AVID or Premier based and not because I like those software suites, (I find them very non intuitive), but because PC based boxes offer tons of add ons like accelerators, render cards, etc. that puts the high def editing into virtual real time.

The only thing that held me back was the recent announcement of FCP 10 and I'm still a little concerned that FCP 10 will be more consumer based, less professional, especially if all the rendering is handled by the computers processors.  We'll see.

One thing that nobody has mentioned on this forum is this announcement that Canon and Technicolor have formed an alliance for processing and output.

http://www.hdslrhub.com/news/canon-and-technicolors-new-picture-style.htm

Though this isn't a standard for everything, at least it's a start.

Though canon video probably outnumbers RED 1,000 to 1, the only thing that holds back RED is the slowness in getting product out on the shelves.  The RED is the only camera I've used in a long time that I can visually see a big difference between the files of any other motion based camera.

I do believe on the medium to higher end it will become a RED world, though I don't believe that Peter Jackson buying a dozen or so Epic's or James Cameron buying 50 for their upcoming projects are a clear indication of where the market is going, as both those gentlemen are working in 3d with massive millions of dollars in special effects.  At their level, they could probably shoot it with an Iphone and it would all turn out.

IMO

BC

« Last Edit: April 28, 2011, 01:35:02 pm by bcooter »
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fredjeang

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Re: Red Raw file in Media Composer
« Reply #13 on: April 28, 2011, 03:31:17 pm »

Hi James,
Nice to read you here.

Yes, Avid is not very intuitive. I've been very resistant to make the step but they gave me a copy at work and honestly at first I started to enter into its learning curve more to thank them for the gift than for feeling attracted. It is very keyboard dependant and the philosophy differs a lot from Premiere. But then, when you get used to it it is IMO a very solid software and right now when I'm back into Premiere it is just not right. It's like some still cameras that can make you feel weired at first but then you realise how good they are after a short time because of their effectiveness. Something like that happened to me with Media Composer.

I agree that 4K will be the standard for both shooting and editing and the prices will drop-down.

What is a paradox though is as you pointed, faster and cheaper works-workflows are the norm and the crisis marginalised the DaVinci's extreme quality kind of products, but being able to work with 4K in real time requires the Pentagon storage etc...so the cost of both storage and computer power have to drop-down too. No doubt in my mind that they will.

Edit: I was thinking that maybe keeping Mac and FCP is not a bad idea at all for the coming times. Smoke is now on Mac and indeed a very serious platform for finishing and a sort of all-in-one. It seems that DaVinci is coming to Mac also. Maybe wait and see what the #10 propose. On the other hand PC solution is great for the reasons you mentionned. I'd go for it personally.

About Canon and Technicolor, I read that article 3 times without really understood what they are cooking behind the stage. I understand their aim but I can't get the real impact it can have.
« Last Edit: April 28, 2011, 06:17:03 pm by fredjeang »
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bcooter

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Re: Red Raw file in Media Composer
« Reply #14 on: April 29, 2011, 05:05:35 am »

Hi James,
Nice to read you here.

Yes, Avid is not very intuitive. I've been very resistant to make the step but they gave me a copy at work and honestly at first I started to enter into its learning curve more to thank them for the gift than for feeling attracted. It is very keyboard dependant and the philosophy differs a lot from Premiere. But then, when you get used to it it is IMO a very solid software and right now when I'm back into Premiere it is just not right. It's like some still cameras that can make you feel weired at first but then you realise how good they are after a short time because of their effectiveness. Something like that happened to me with Media Composer.

I agree that 4K will be the standard for both shooting and editing and the prices will drop-down.

What is a paradox though is as you pointed, faster and cheaper works-workflows are the norm and the crisis marginalised the DaVinci's extreme quality kind of products, but being able to work with 4K in real time requires the Pentagon storage etc...so the cost of both storage and computer power have to drop-down too. No doubt in my mind that they will.

Edit: I was thinking that maybe keeping Mac and FCP is not a bad idea at all for the coming times. Smoke is now on Mac and indeed a very serious platform for finishing and a sort of all-in-one. It seems that DaVinci is coming to Mac also. Maybe wait and see what the #10 propose. On the other hand PC solution is great for the reasons you mentionned. I'd go for it personally.

About Canon and Technicolor, I read that article 3 times without really understood what they are cooking behind the stage. I understand their aim but I can't get the real impact it can have.


Fred,

When we get a break we will go to a specialty dealer and test some high end personally configured machines.

In one way staying with Apple makes sense because we have multiple workstations all with apple.

On the other hand, if the new FCP requires a new computer, plug ins, peripherals, in other words a complete redo, then I'll give a PC Box with Avid a very hard look, because with the PC as post production only system is much less expensive to update and the options for graphics cards and accelerators is for PC is 6 to 1 compared to Apple.

In regards to the prices coming down, in ways they have, because a decade ago it took $50,000 to get into a base system, usually more.  Still today, to really set up a high end system, regardless of make is still in the $15,000 range.  Not earth shattering expensive, but still higher than an I mac and a few hard drives.

One thing I will do on my next purchase is go through a dedicated dealer that customizes each system.   They charge a little more but road test everything before they hand it over, know the systems inside and out and can set you up without having to spend your life searching through google to get an answer on an issue.

Regardless, I am almost positive I will go with the Avid just because it's format is still the base standard for high end stations.

I just dread the new learning curve, but who doesn't?   What I dread more is rendering time.  I have to get the 2/3's of our editing time to be real time rendering regardless of resolution.

All the best.

BC


P.S.  Next time we are in Spain hopefully we can meet, or if you plan to go to Paris, let us know.

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fredjeang

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Re: Red Raw file in Media Composer
« Reply #15 on: April 29, 2011, 07:15:57 am »

James,

With great pleasure I will meet you, in Spain or Paris. I have to go to Paris at one point to do a documentary about a painter and it's been pushed further so far. I'll let you know. This summer I'll be in the south of France because a friend (another painter) has good relations with some directors and he managed that an experienced filmaker will give me some free training, a mix of hollidays and video seminar in his summer home in the Pyrénées moutains. I need that at this point to make further steps in video and it comes just right. It's gona be rustic style training.

About Avid, I can tell you this: my system at home is not to the pro standards (neither at work) and I'm runnin a rather old PC workstation. I have for editing Adobe Premiere CS3 and 4 installed, Edius 6 and Avid MC 5. When I have footage that put the equipment to the limits, Avid is still workable while the others not. In fact, when you run it, it sort of auto-disconnect all the PC memory peripherical consuming and the result is indeed noticiable. It handles better the memory available. When the other softwares slowdown drastically or even freeze, Avid still allows you to work and I never had just a single freeze so far.

I find also the transcoding faster. Transcoding 4K R3D to DNxHD best quality on my equipment is not al all a burden despite its limitations and no need third party software with weired and oscur settings. Right clic on the bin and that's it. You can even import footage on the bin to any previous format you decided and the transcoding is done automatically very fast at the import stage. (a few seconds per clip) So I imagine that with a real high-end workstation it will be a very managable batch task even with Raw files.

I can edit on-the-fly in real time the R3D without probs even grading in Raw in the timeline. But I have not ingested so far hundreds of Raw footage in the same timeline and that I'm sure it is another story. Still, what I want to transmit is that I can't see any difference between ingesting AVCHD or R3D directly in the timeline but of course I'm talking about a limited number of clips. I would even say that R3D works faster than AVCHD if I had to find a slightly difference.

My experience with the learning curve from zero is this: 2 days of hell, lots of coffees, ashtray full of stubs and a few headaches. But then, when you got it, it is quite fun actually and pretty much easier because all is logic, usefull and well thought. For example, this video shows well how good the trim functions are : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8YLA1cuykFw

I wish you the best for your coming purchase and workflow. If you have any questions concerning the MC 5 workflow when you'll be in the learning curve (if you finally go for it), please write at any time; it will be a pleasure to be helpfull if my knowledge can.

Take care.

Fred.

another links: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p9X5RN2yqaM&feature=related and http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=18EQ_5K91x4&feature=related

 
« Last Edit: April 29, 2011, 05:50:16 pm by fredjeang »
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